KVR Audio

bungle · Post by **bungle** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:45 pm

Was interested in buying this, but if such a simple plugin is having features taken off buttons and put in to menus, the developer has little to no idea about UX design, no chance i will be investing in your plugins if that is the route you are taking.

Nielzie · Post by **Nielzie** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:57 pm

A randomise button on the GUI directly makes more sense indeed, because for this function specifically the extra clicks to quickly go to the next randomisation would be cumbersome te use. A very small button somewhere would be enough

Kr3eM · Post by **Kr3eM** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:13 pm

Jakob / Cableguys wrote:
Kr3eM wrote:
Jakob / Cableguys wrote:.... as we learned from user testing that for most users, its better to have a streamlined, less crowded interface.
...if my previosly rant post is too much, just explain why this is better? And I mean why it IS better, not looking better.
No problem, this thread is for feedback. Well we can't always make all users happy of course, but we try the best we can. So I'd be curious to know what others think? Would you prefer a visible random button over having it as option in the right-click menu only?

This propbably have to my last post regarding this, my irritation is growing so do appologize in advance if the following might come across as crude.

First of all this shouldn't really be a question you should have to ask if you can't answer me why it IS BETTER TO HAVE IT AS A RIGHT_CLICK OPTION.

As for comments like "I dont care for that function" or "I dont use it anyway" should have absolutely no impact on this issue. It would be ridicolus to write down all the functions/options your DAW and your plugins have that you don't use and ask the dev's to remove it from the GUI.

So this should not or is actually not a question about making users happy.
If you offer the function it is obviosly self explained that you should make it as practical as possible for the users to use it. This is the core of what seperates a good product from a lesser one. A good product make users happy, it is simple as that.

As midishaper for example was before, this was the action you had to put into it to use the randomise function.

1. Move to mouse pointer to the icon.
2. Click on the icon.
...If you dont like the result repeat following until you do.
1. Click again

...tadaaaaa.

Now the same procedure with the updated Midishaper would be
1. Move the mouse pointer to the curve display
2. Right click
3. move mouse pointer to the 4th option Randomise points
4. Click
...If you dont like the result repeat following until you do.
2. Right click
3. move mouse pointer to the 4th option Randomise points
4. Click

....... do I really need to make an actual visual video for it to be realized?

If I would have to guess I would assume this issue with moving functions to a right-click menu was made in haste without proberly considering the practicality. If keeping the GUI clean from fuction Icons is so important then be creative, do as TAL made with switching color on the bassline-101... ie click in the left up corner. No icon, trace of the function on GUI.

If you ever change your mind/priorities and really would like to have suggestions that are practial when it comes to workflow and creativity I do have a few. But there's no way I am wasting my time with that seeing how an issue like this is being met.

You have made good plugins, and do give my honest respect and grattitude for that. You still can make alot of improvement and I know you will, but when it comes to this issue you have made a misstake, especially with Midishaper. If you can't see how much functionality and workflow quality got sacrificed for a few pixels of space you got when changing the menu in Midishaper there's nothing more to say.

Jakob / Cableguys · Post by **Jakob / Cableguys** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:15 pm

bungle wrote:Was interested in buying this, but if such a simple plugin is having features taken off buttons and put in to menus, the developer has little to no idea about UX design, no chance i will be investing in your plugins if that is the route you are taking.

I should maybe clarify that VolumeShaper 4 never had the random button.. it was version 3 which had it, but out of 20+ users that we watched using our plugins for many hours, I can only remember one user who ever did some use of the random function (not because it was hidden.. this was also with previous versions which had the button, and of course we showed the right-click menus to all test users).

Kr3eM · Post by **Kr3eM** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:23 pm

Jakob / Cableguys wrote: I should maybe clarify that VolumeShaper 4 never had the random button.. it was version 3 which had it, but out of 20+ users that we watched using our plugins for many hours, I can only remember one user who ever did some use of the random function (not because it was hidden.. this was also with previous versions which had the button, and of course we showed the right-click menus to all test users).

I grant you the random function is less vital for volumeshapers average usage, but it is much more important for plugins like Midishaper and FilterShaper. On the otherhand, this doesn't make it less inconvinent and poorly integrated in the GUI as a right click option.

And also I have to add that you should probably change your test users if they failed to understand this they can't judge objectivley with functionality and practical use as the main priority.

There's no suprise that there are schools that educate people in this skill as such.

ENV1 · Post by **ENV1** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:26 pm

Not a user of the product, but i agree that something that you have to click repeatedly until you get a usable result should not be in a menu because it makes you want to bite the carpet after a while.

(I know this from some sample plugins. Open dropdown, select sample, not good. Open dropdown again, select sample, not good either. Open dropdown again, select sample, curse the dev for not putting a damn Prev/Next function on the UI.)

e@rs · Post by **e@rs** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:46 pm

I also like to have everything in front of me, not buried in menus.

Kr3eM · Post by **Kr3eM** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:53 pm

e@rs wrote:I also like to have everything in front of me, not buried in menus.

Well that is the most optimal GUI possible, and that is not a matter of opinion when it comes to practical use in reality.

GilJ · Post by **GilJ** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:55 pm

Sim.Sky wrote: well, one (small) button more or less (in the row with the gate/undo/redo controls for instance) would neither disturb the workflow nor bother the majority of the users imo (and i'm saying this although i really don't care for this random-control-thing at all in general)

+1

Haven't upgraded to v4 (still a happy user of v3 - but the new drawing tool is telling me to upgrade!)

In fact, I don't really use the randomize function as I find it most of the time not really musical (it would be cool if there was a possibility for the generated waveform to have points which are quantized on a predefined timing for example 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, 1/16 etc.)

Maybe that if there was a way to control the amount / quantization / musicality of the randomness, I would have been very happy to have a button directly on the interface

In any case, nice update

Cheers,
GilJ.

Jakob / Cableguys · Post by **Jakob / Cableguys** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:24 am

No doubt, if you want to use the random function, having to go the rote via the right-click menu is bad.

But for us, the question is: how many users ever want to use the random function? And if they do, does randomizing points provide satisfying results (or inspiration)? Is it for practical or inspirational use for more than a very small fraction of users?

I was under the impression from all tests, that it is not. Thus the decision to bury the random function in the menu. If random is of enough good use, I am happy to add the button again.

We get a ton of feature request, ideas and feedback via email. The random thing was maybe mentioned once I think. I'll recheck with my support colleague, though.

AgiKvr · Post by **AgiKvr** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:09 am

Maybe it's more usefulthe ability of linking 2 or 3 points together so when i automate ONE of these points the envelope "moves" without messing itself... (I always use automations to cut/short the "humm" of my kick during certain parts into the song)

e@rs · Post by **e@rs** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 am

Don't really care about Random, but I'd love those 'Flip horizontal / vertical' and 'Snap to grid' back as buttons.

Jakob / Cableguys · Post by **Jakob / Cableguys** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:22 am

AgiKvr wrote:Maybe it's more usefulthe ability of linking 2 or 3 points together so when i automate ONE of these points the envelope "moves" without messing itself... (I always use automations to cut/short the "humm" of my kick during certain parts into the song)

I understand. But wouldn't automating the mix knob do the same trick for this?

Sim.Sky · Post by **Sim.Sky** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:47 am

e@rs wrote:Don't really care about Random, but I'd love those 'Flip horizontal / vertical' and 'Snap to grid' back as buttons.

+1 definitely!

AgiKvr · Post by **AgiKvr** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:57 am

Jakob / Cableguys wrote:
AgiKvr wrote:Maybe it's more usefulthe ability of linking 2 or 3 points together so when i automate ONE of these points the envelope "moves" without messing itself... (I always use automations to cut/short the "humm" of my kick during certain parts into the song)
I understand. But wouldn't automating the mix knob do the same trick for this?

It depends....often I set the lenght of my kick during the mix/arrangement....AFTER this,I use automation to cut the "humm"(in some moments) if I automate the mix control I lose my previous settings into volume shaper . I can' t explain it better because I suck with english

Anyway..follow the "most wanted" requests...maybe I'm the only one who automate more points together....

VolumeShaper 4.1 out now! - Tweaked UI and editing features