Scale selection to begin!

[A_SN]

I got excited, took the Scala list, removed a bunch of Asian stuff no one cares about and spent the last hour and a half creating this list:

http://photosounder.com/scales.html

Hopefully that helps, I know that will help me! If only I could sort them in a more helpful way, no point in having something totally obscure on top of each section...

[zethus909]

i was playing the jazz minor now, its this right? C D Eb F G A B C......honestly, it sounds weird, like it doesnt sound jazz enough to me...what s a better scale...that sounds more robust, this one sound like too negative and one dimensional

[JumpingJackFlash]

In the basic sense, a scale is essentially just a listing of notes used within a piece. It's like the alphabet, setting out the main notes (and many pieces will use additional notes too). A scale is not music in itself, there is A LOT more to music than that.

Now there are some "scales" that might mean something, like Indian Ragas for example, but that isn't just the notes of the scale, the meaning comes from how they are used... So just using those notes won't necessarily create the same effect. It's more complicated than that. This is also the reason why, for example, the Ionian Mode isn't the same as the Major Scale.

So whichever way you look at it, getting obsessed about which scale to use is not really a good use of your time. Any one scale can provide many different moods depending on how it is used. And a good musician can create several different moods from the same scale. Do all pieces in C major sound the same? Of course not.

In other words, a scale won't do the job for you. If you want to create a particular style or effect, there are much more important things to think about.

A story writer for example doesn't start by thinking "What letters am I going to use in this paragraph?". Preferring one subset of letters over another isn't going to make the story any more interesting.

For what it's worth, there is some information on different scales here.

i was playing the jazz minor now, its this right? C D Eb F G A B C

Yes.

[A_SN]

i was playing the jazz minor now, its this right? C D Eb F G A B C......honestly, it sounds weird, like it doesnt sound jazz enough to me...what s a better scale...that sounds more robust, this one sound like too negative and one dimensional

it's not a minor third that's gonna turn whatever you play into jazz. Like I said before this is a problem with focusing too much on selecting a scale. Lots of jazz is in natural minor, so try that, but the thing about jazz is it doesn't hesitate to use all 12 notes anyway no matter what scale it's supposed to be.

Maybe you should study some pieces of the kind you'd like to play so you have a better idea what makes it work.

[zethus909]

yea i know i can go two routes it seems, either close my eyes and play jazz. this is easy...only problem is i dont know exactly what notes i am playing, because my eyes are closed.....everything is just modes anyway.

[tapper mike]

Songs using the "Jazz" melodic minor

Autumn Leaves
Nica's Dream (Horace Silver)
So What (Miles Davis)
Impressions (John Coltrane)

If you don't "Play jazzy" then nothing will "Sound Jazzy" J
The melodic minor is not the only scale choice provided to jazz musicians. With jazz there are many many methodologies to take one to a desired result. (that of composition and arrangement) If you want to explore the realms that jazz makes possible it starts with an appreciation of given artists through active listening and developing a repertoire of standards. You have to embrace the medium.


The melodic minor scale has a minor third, but a major seventh. So, the C melodic minor scale is C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C. The modes of this scale generate numerous chords that are used in jazz, mostly commonly these (all from the C melodic minor scale):

Cm-ma7 (or Cm6/9*)
F7#11 (or F13*)
Am7b5*
B7alt (B7b5#5b9#9)

(*The chords with an asterisk aren’t necessarily from the melodic minor, but are often played that way.)

These chords are often used as substitutes for more “plain” chords.

For example, the Cm-ma7 chord (which is C-Eb-G-B) is often used as a substitute for Cm7 (which is C-Eb-G-Bb) when a song is in the key of C minor. To hear an example of the Cm-ma7 chord, and how it compares to the Cm7 chord, listen to “My Funny Valentine,” which is in the key of C minor / Eb major. The first four chords are: Cm, Cm-ma7, Cm7, Cm6. Hear how that second chord (under the word "val-en-tine", if you're listening to a vocal rendition) has a darker, more mysterious sound to it.

[zethus909]

when hes playing trumpet he seems to be using this scale over top, C Eb F Gb G Bb C, thats basically that blues scale i was saying before. except in aeolian mode...and also he is adding in B and D(and Ab), so the major 7th and augmented 5th of the Ionian mode (Eb tonic),
like this little run, Eb<C<B<Ab<Eb, that is the jazz to me...so you are right, there is this major 7th, and the minor 3rd, that gives it that jazzy sound

but also theres 3 flats on the sheet, the melody notes are all in Cm diatonic except one accidental the A natural. so I'm not sure that there is really the Melodic minor going on in this song...because there is no A.....except the A natural from that scale...but its accidental..

and that 6th(4th of major mode) doesnt sound like jazz to me, i think that is the one note that i dont think fits right....

i think this scale is better for jazz, C D Eb F Gb G Ab Bb B C (i mean thats ALL the notes that you can choose from)....i think that A natural it just doesnt fit, and that is part of the melodic minor....except using those notes in the major mode, it doesnt sound right...that major 7th (of major mode)(minor 3rd of minor mode) should be flat for the major mode.... (ie. the D should be Db) keep the B though
Eb F Gb G Ab Bb B C Db Eb (hows that for a "Jazz" scale!??) meh sounds a bit too bluesy idk...but what other options are there really


im using this sheet here
http://funnyvalentines.net/wp-content/u ... entine.gif
and listening to this

[zethus909]

ok the melodic minor, its starting to sound jazzy to me...lol.....i am just experimenting with the harmonies you can get from those notes.....but this is the melodic minor, not harmonic...

[MBrougham]

As for the moods evoked by keys/scales. I often refer to this: http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm

[JumpingJackFlash]

As for the moods evoked by keys/scales. I often refer to this: http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm

Note that a lot of that refers to systems other than equal temperament.
In equal temperament, most of it is meaningless.

If writing for real instruments, be aware that they will often have particular registers with certain characteristics, but that's a different thing.

Also, regarding the melodic minor, note that the ascending and descending versions are different. In the context of some of the above posts, "jazz minor" is a more appropriate term.

Also note that the melodic minor and harmonic minor are scales, but traditionally, music is written in the minor key which includes both (the sixth and seventh degrees are variables).

[zethus909]

As for the moods evoked by keys/scales. I often refer to this: http://biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm

Note that a lot of that refers to systems other than equal temperament.
In equal temperament, most of it is meaningless.

If writing for real instruments, be aware that they will often have particular registers with certain characteristics, but that's a different thing.

Also, regarding the melodic minor, note that the ascending and descending versions are different. In the context of some of the above posts, "jazz minor" is a more appropriate term.

Also note that the melodic minor and harmonic minor are scales, but traditionally, music is written in the minor key which includes both (the sixth and seventh degrees are variables).

ok cool, so the sheet music is what tells you the "key".....and the scale over top can have whatever notes you want in it....

its seems clear, that this song is in Cm......and then all the notes of the melodies are diatonically part of that too...except the A natural....

but my question is, if all these jazz songs are playing melodic minor (jazz minor)(ascending both ways) scales all the time, then you will be playing chords derived FROM that scale...

you wont be playing chords from the "normal" diatonic key....if you WERE playing only the diatonic chords always, it would sound awful....(plus you would have to be writing in a billion accidentals)

you will be playing mostly chords that come from the scale...

so isnt there a way to specify in the sheet there in fact is not 3 flats like for Cm.......because you will basically be playing only 1 flat in all the melodies

if you specify "1 flat", and put that on the E bar......is that how it works?

[JumpingJackFlash]

its seems clear, that this song is in Cm......and then all the notes of the melodies are diatonically part of that too...except the A natural....

In minor keys, both the notes of the key signature and the sharpened versions of the sixth and seventh degrees are all diatonic. So in the key of C minor, Ab and A natural, as well as Bb and B natural, are both diatonic. Both versions of the notes are just as much a part of the key, equally correct; neither is inherently better than the other (just in some situations one might be more appropriate).

so isnt there a way to specify in the sheet there in fact is not 3 flats like for Cm.......because you will basically be playing only 1 flat in all the melodies

if you specify "1 flat", and put that on the E bar......is that how it works?

No. If you're in C minor, then the key signature should have 3 flats in it, even if every single B in the piece is natural (they would need writing in as accidentals). You can't just have Eb in the key signature; there's the order of flats to consider (BEADGCF). In some situations it might be possible to use no key signature and write all the Ebs in as accidentals, but this would not normally be preferred.

[MadBrain]

so isnt there a way to specify in the sheet there in fact is not 3 flats like for Cm.......because you will basically be playing only 1 flat in all the melodies

if you specify "1 flat", and put that on the E bar......is that how it works?

Irl players are accustomed to reading their parts in C minor natural, with a Bb Eb Ab in the key signature and natural signs added on A and B throughout the song. For the key signature, often musicians don't even look at which note is flat since there is a standard order, so if they see 1 flat they assume the flat is Bb and song is in F major or D minor (so if you write a signature with only Eb in it, it will throw them off).

(Exception to this: special key signatures are fine for Turkish music)

[zethus909]

https://goo.gl/images/M8BtN2 so this is how it works. these are all 4 different C scales but In the key of Cminor

[JumpingJackFlash]

https://goo.gl/images/M8BtN2 so this is how it works. these are all 4 different C scales but In the key of Cminor

The bottom one in C major.
And it would be more precise to say the key of C minor includes all the notes of the other three.
(It does not include the E-natural except when used as a Tierce de Picardie).

Remember, scales are just a theoretical abstraction, a tool to aid practice and so on. They aren't the music itself. To put it another way, Mozart (et al) didn't sit down and think "I'll use the melodic minor here...", he just used the minor key as he saw fit.