KVR Audio

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:22 pm

Programmed version versus played version. Which is which?
Okay, okay, some people might actually prefer the programmed version and might say it has more mojo. I give up. Hahaha.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:39 pm

Kraftwerk's Autobahn must be full of mojo then, since it was all performed by humans without the aid of sequencers or drum machines. I'm sure Joe would agree.

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:30 pm

deastman wrote:Kraftwerk's Autobahn must be full of mojo then, since it was all performed by humans without the aid of sequencers or drum machines. I'm sure Joe would agree.

Hard to say. I guess if Joe is presented with two choices, choice 1 being Autobahn played live and choice 2 Autobahn programmed, then Joe might be able to tell which is which and pick Autobahn played live.

I don't know what kind of music Joe has in his CD collection (most likely vinyl collection) but I would guess he is into classic rock and Kraftwerk might not be in there. But hey, it's in mine and I think Trans Europe Express has mojo (oh no, don't tell me that tune is completely programmed, if it is then Joe might be wrong and that chaos guy might be right, something about perspective and mojo not being real).

But if I have to choose which to buy between the two version of the I Can't Tell You Why, I would choose the one by the actual Eagles and pass on the programmed version.

But I guess a lot of people do download and buy and consume programmed music but I just hope music made and played by actual bands don't completely go extinct.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:32 pm

harryupbabble wrote:It's possible that Joe Walsh was not saying that music made with a DAW is total crap, it's possible that he was only saying that rather than uploading something that one made in a DAW one could play one's composition that was made in a DAW, play that composition LIVE with a bunch of capable musician rather than relying on the DAW's "humanize" function.

Furthermore I think he might have been saying that the "digital age" enabled people to work by themselves and that this is bad because when you are by yourself you can't get the "more possibilities" "more permutations" "more mojo" that you can get when you create/play tunes with a band. The humanize function that DAWs have can't really achieve what humans can, it's not as human as an actual human.

Get a very good programmer (of a DAW) to program a Beatles tune in any DAW, chances are the Beatles tune performed by the actual Beatles is better and more mojocal, more alive. And it shouldn't matter if you like the Beatles or not. Joe Walsh said "you can tell" if music is programmed. But who is "you"? My sister thought New Order's music, which I like, is programmed. She may be partially right. But as far as I can tell, New Order jammed.

Anyways, a tune like Greensleeves is going to remain Greensleeves as long as the note sequences or intervals are not changed no matter if the instruments used are all synthesizers or whether they are all classic rock instruments. But, again, maybe most of the time the Greensleeves performed live is going to sound better than the Greensleves that was left in DAW-form. On the other hand, yes music is subjective. It's possible some people might actually prefer the "programmed" version of Greensleves or whatever to the "played live" version.

But the thing is... isn't most "popular" music of today left in DAW-form? So, the choice of "programmed" versus "jammed" music is no longer 50/50. It's more like 95/5 favoring the "programmed" type of music? For example, Avicci programs his stuff on a DAW (does he?) then exports it and that's what you get when you listen to his stuff? Direct from the DAW. And I did read in Wikipedia or elsewhere that EDM is now the dominant music genre worldwide so my 95/5 ratio guess is probably correct?

But I guess there are some loner musicians that might not be "programming" their DAW, not penciling in the notes in the piano roll of a DAW. They might actually be using their DAW as a multi-track recorder and playing/recording all the virtual instruments live by way of a keyboard, or even plugging in their electric guitar. This is probably not as bad. Prince probably did that. But he probably had a full studio to do it and not just a DAW, but did he do it much? He still preferred playing with other humans, no? It's probably because he has done "Joe Walsh's" way and the "do it all yourself" way and he could tell the difference between the two methods and came to the conclusion that playing with other humans produced better results than "playing with yourself" and penciling in notes in a DAW's piano roll. Paul MacCartney, even in his Beatles days, could play so many instruments by himself but he didn't do that much, for probably the same reason that Prince and a bunch of others didn't: more mojo in playing live with others?

Okay, being human, my post probably is full of bias and general dung and classic rock slant. But hey, educate me further if I am wrong. Please.

I think you post is your perspective and I see nothing wrong in it myself, I guess I'm in the middle. For me it's all about guitar and has been since I got my first guitar in 1971. I have no drumming skills what so ever but I am drum literate and do program my drums. I am not afraid to shut off my quantize., my guitar playing is not perfect and I really prefer not to use auto quantize because then it would sound to programmed to me so I will tweak my drums timing to fit my guitar (often to my own detriment but so be it, I like it more real and EDM is not my thing). Samplitude uses comparasonics which shows audio waves in different colors for different pitches so this is fairly easy to do.

Bass is just guitar but I'm will use samples as well as a synth for that matter in lieu of a bass guitar. I write my keyboard parts with keyboards, I would say it's about a 50/50 split between performing the parts with the keyboard and programming parts in a piano roll (but again I am not afraid to shut off the quantize).

If there are vocals involved I'll do a rough draft guitar part and squeeze the vocal process in about this point.

Once those parts are all done then I do guitar parts and typically take forever to finish songs because I'm just having a ball playing the songs I wrote on my guitar along with my virtual band. I'm really not demonstrative about it so performing live is not important, for me it's just about "going there" and playing for my heart and soul. Perhaps the heart and soul could be called mojo, but it's not my place to say whether or not I have mojo...I just have this overwhelming drive and passion to play my guitar, I dont want to spend my life playing to CDs of other artists' songs and I dont want to be dependent on other musicians and their schedules to enjoy my passion. I just wanna pick up my gi-tar and blast away when I feel like picking up my gi-tar and blasting away

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:45 pm

Fair enough, thanks for adding your viewpoint Hink.

incubus · Post by **incubus** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:22 pm

I love perfectly quantized stuff quite often. Now, when it's used OVER AND OVER AND OVER (oh, let's say the 808) it becomes tiresome.

I also don't like "beats" that are so wonky to be different, they suck too. Everyone is different.

Ridan · Post by **Ridan** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:26 pm

incubus wrote:I love perfectly quantized stuff quite often. Now, when it's used OVER AND OVER AND OVER (oh, let's say the 808) it becomes tiresome.

I also don't like "beats" that are so wonky to be different, they suck too. Everyone is different.

Actually bought NI Maschine a few years ago for the sole purpose of experimenting with those "wonky/non-quantized/just to be different" type beats (don't judge). While i had a blast recording them i would always wake up the next day only to cringe after listening. The process itself was a slight life changer though.

Sticking with the ole (should be dead by now) ESX1.

Don't know if mojo is lost in programmed music or not. Too many options, so little time for pointy human fingers. Some music just sounds better when it's not programmed while others do.

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:51 pm

What IS 'mojo' anyway?

Frantz · Post by **Frantz** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:23 am

I just drag my Waves Muddy Waters Platinum Edition Mojo plugin onto all of my programmed stuff. It gets that mojo working right away.

incubus · Post by **incubus** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:04 pm

herodotus wrote:What IS 'mojo' anyway?

I tried. I tried not to do this.......

datroof · Post by **datroof** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:52 pm

Winstontaneous wrote:

That's a great scene. I'm not an Eagles fan, by any means, but I do appreciate the craftsmanship. They were a successful band before Joe joined, so it's fairly easy to compare the pre-Joe and post-Joe versions. For my money, Joe gave the band a huge mojo injection.

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:10 pm

That "humanize" function in most DAWs: it should be renamed "quasimojo". Why it's even there seems like an admission of "mojo lacking". Well, it's kind of true. No?

Hey, I just found out that the guitar solo in the Eagles song I Can't Tell You Why was not done by Joe Walsh, it was done by Glen Frey. Also, it seems there is another Eagles member, Don Felder, that also does guitar solos.

Three mojo injectors is better than one? If mojo exist at all, that is. But people say love exist and so why can't mojo?

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:30 pm

he was in James Gang too

mojo is the names of some of his solo albums

The Smoker You Drink, the Player You Get
So What
You Can't Argue with a Sick Mind
There Goes the Neighborhood
You Bought It – You Name It
Got Any Gum

or taking a chainsaw on tour http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists ... e-20160401

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:29 pm

Hink wrote:or taking a chainsaw on tour http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists ... e-20160401

Hahaha. Funny. Especially the one about the guitarist for the band Dwarves. The one named He Who Cannot Be Named.
This guy.

incubus · Post by **incubus** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:40 am

(you know, that incubus guy, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.......)

I cannot explain the circumstances as to why/when/how. But was just watching "Live from Darryl's house" and didn't even remember that that is where this is from

Oh well, some f**king killer music that hasn't lost it's mojo.....very "jelly" of that.

No Mojo In Programmed Music?