Maybe Someday...

[harryupbabble]

My idea is not to be against hard work or perspiration. It's more about desiring and knowing in advance the right thing to do the hard work for. One could be focused on the wrong thing and put all that effort in vain.

I mean what if as a child you decide "I am going to be working in quantum physics like Einstein was." And then as time passes on it becomes clear that your brain cannot handle the complexity that your passion requires then you wasted all those years for nothing?

But if you know in advance that your brain is built to handle the complexity of quantum physics then you have the extra belief and drive to keep on putting in the hard work. No?

[Numanoid]

... when you are young you can get a brain scan and you will know exactly whether you have a lyrical mind or a musical mind. Or both. Or whatever.

If only life could be so simple, either 0 or 1, yes or no, on or off

[Numanoid]

I mean what if as a child you decide "I am going to be working in quantum physics like Einstein was." And then as time passes on it becomes clear that your brain cannot handle the complexity that your passion requires then you wasted all those years for nothing?

Not really, just means you reached puberty

[fmr]

My idea is not to be against hard work or perspiration. It's more about desiring and knowing in advance the right thing to do the hard work for. One could be focused on the wrong thing and put all that effort in vain.

Hard work is never in vain. And if you are really not gifted for what you are trying to do, you or anyone else can see that really quick.

I mean what if as a child you decide "I am going to be working in quantum physics like Einstein was." And then as time passes on it becomes clear that your brain cannot handle the complexity that your passion requires then you wasted all those years for nothing?

The children don't "decide" anything. They usually do what their parents want them to do. It's up to the parents to be attentive and sensible enough to check if the children are doing what they are better equipped to do, and, as I said, they can do that fast anough. As an example - I have four children. All of them went to study music at a very young age (of course ) All of them were gifted at that, but only one (my third) was really willing to do that. The other three had to be forced to work. So, when the older ones reach the age of choosing (around 15) they chose something else. My older daughter went to design, and she is doing really well in her career (thank God) which it happened was what she really wanted to do. My older boy went to sciences. He is not doing so well, and I think that, partly, it's due to him being gifted in so many areas that he simply can't concentrate in just one, so, he waste his time doing lots of things. Any of them could very well proceed in music, and they would be really good musicians, IMO, but they chose not to.

My third (second daughter) is now finishing her graduation as a pianist, and she is quite good. But when she was very young she revealed to be also a really gifted gimnast, and she could have go through that path. She didn't because we (parents) had to choose, and we chose music.

My youngest, after having give up of music at a younger age (my ex-wife gave up of trying to force her to work because she was already exhausted by the work she had to do with the older ones) now, at the age of 15, decided that she wanted to try a career in music. Go figure!

But if you know in advance that your brain is built to handle the complexity of quantum physics then you have the extra belief and drive to keep on putting in the hard work. No?

I really doubt that any scan would give you such precise results. The brain area responsible for the "quantum physics" is the same that is responsible for all the abstract mental work that involves math and sciences in general. So, why quantum physics and not biology, or medicine, chemistry or simply mechanics?

And what about the WILL? As I just told you, being gifted is just a small part of the equation. You have to work, and children, usually, have to be "helped" at that. And it's really hard trying to make a child work at something. It's understandable. We had a philosoph here in Portugal (died a few years ago -a very cherished personality) who told once that the human being was naturally predisposed to "play" and that any kind of work is a violence to us (especially children, of course). And I think he is right

[Numanoid]

Hard work is never in vain.

So are you speaking as a prison warden?

[Hink]

My idea is not to be against hard work or perspiration. It's more about desiring and knowing in advance the right thing to do the hard work for. One could be focused on the wrong thing and put all that effort in vain.

I mean what if as a child you decide "I am going to be working in quantum physics like Einstein was." And then as time passes on it becomes clear that your brain cannot handle the complexity that your passion requires then you wasted all those years for nothing?

But if you know in advance that your brain is built to handle the complexity of quantum physics then you have the extra belief and drive to keep on putting in the hard work. No?

what if that person has absolutely no interest whatsoever in what the brain scan suggests and a passion for something the brain scan discourages do you not see the potential for extreme conflict leading to serious complications?

[fmr]

Hard work is never in vain.

So are you speaking as a prison warden?

That's better than this:

"Arbeit macht frei" (German pronunciation: [ˈaɐ̯baɪt ˈmaxt ˈfʁaɪ]) is a German phrase meaning "work sets you free". The slogan is known for appearing on the entrance of Auschwitz and other labour camps.

Sorry if anyone feels offended by this, but it's History.

[harryupbabble]

But nobody noticed Van Gogh's talents. Not even his parents? Okay maybe his brother did? The rest of the world did not? Not till much later.

What if parents are wrong sometimes? Aren't a lot of artists rebels? Meaning they disagreed with their parents and did not do what their parents wanted them to do? But how can a child disagree with accurate brain scan results? A 7-year old child might grasp the idea? How can a parent disagree with accurate brain scan results?

What if brain scan science can help parents decide better what is best for their child? The only way to find out is to actually do it. Use brain scans, I mean. Hey you never know, it might work.

Brain scans works in other areas, detecting Alzheimer's, for one. Maybe the pluses outweighs the minuses? What are the possible minuses again? Is it similar to Eugenics? Doesn't seem to be the same. Everyone should/would have equal access to it? Eventually, hopefully. Brain scan science doesn't seem science fiction anymore. It's coming? It's here?

Okay guys/gals, thanks for your interesting inputs. My other computer is not tied up now and so bye for now.

[fmr]

But nobody noticed Van Gogh's talents. Not even his parents? Okay maybe his brother did? The rest of the world did not? Not till much later.

What do you mean? He did, so much so that he decided to pursue that career. Isn't it what's being discussed? Or would you imply that, just because some "brain scan" says you are a painter, you will start magically selling paintings by millions?

What if parents are wrong sometimes? Aren't a lot of artists rebels? Meaning they disagreed with their parents and did not do what their parents wanted them to do? But how can a child disagree with accurate brain scan results? A 7-year old child might grasp the idea? How can a parent disagree with accurate brain scan results?

Parents do mistakes all the time. That's a fact of life. We just try to do our best, willing for the best to our children. Sometimes, they think different, and decide to pursue other careers. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't. Sometimes we (parents) are right, sometimes we aren't. That's life. It's a trial and error exercise. Again, IMO no brain scan can guarante you success, especialy in artistic careers, where you depend very much on other's opinions of your work.

And yes, I think "brain scan" is a kind of "Orwellian" or Huxley scenario

[Numanoid]

But nobody noticed Van Gogh's talents. Not even his parents? Okay maybe his brother did? The rest of the world did not? Not till much later.

2000 years before Kopernicus, I think it was Erathostehenes, came to the conclusion that the planets orbit the sun, and not the Earth

And even when Kopernicus made that claim, it was like hari-kiri, nobody dug it, it wasn't a top 20 hit, top of the pops, it was actually seen as blasphemy

So, it can take a long time before anybody notice your talents

[Numanoid]

And yes, I think "brain scan" is a kind of "Orwellian" or Huxley scenario

Nope, it is basically just a CAT scan ain't it ?

[mcnoone]

Both nature and nurture have their place in this.
There are innate physical traits that can go from your brain to even the length of your fingers that can hinder or help. Yet your social status may have just as much an influence.
Your parents ideas on music. Many factors go into it besides what your synapses determine.
Not that synapses don't play a part as well.
Brain scans, or better still DNA profiling, are only half of the picture.
One major factor is if you were given a musical instrument to learn at an early age.
So it's both nature and nurture.

[harryupbabble]

I just learned today that Bob Dylan has just won a Nobel prize. It's probably for something that his lyrical mind did and not because he has a mind similar to Mozart's. Anyways, now I am wondering even more "Are lyrics more powerful than music?". There probably won't be a Nobel prize for instrumentalists. Who knows.

Also, again, I'm slightly more convinced that lyric-making is totally different than music-making, that it can't be both done excellently by the same mind. Freaky dual-minds could do it? I forgot about Bob Dylan. I should have mentioned him much earlier in this thread. Now there's a guy who can supposedly really write lyrics better than make music? I'm not totally sure though. Maybe he was good at both?

Deja vu speaking, someday maybe brain scans will tell everybody the answer to that and to many other questions. And that would be good more than bad? And more people would be happy? And the world will be less dark? And maybe even less violent? Advanced brain scan science could maybe be used to detect evil greedy minds too? Fix sociopaths, etc. No?

[Numanoid]

I just learned today that Bob Dylan has just won a Nobel prize.

I doesn't take much to win a nobel price these days, just gotta remember that light and night rhyme, love and dove etc, it's all quite simple really

Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead
I long to see you in the morning light
I long to reach for you in the night
Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead.

[BertKoor]

Also, again, I'm slightly more convinced that lyric-making is totally different than music-making, that it can't be both done excellently by the same mind. Freaky dual-minds could do it?

There are loads of examples of good writers of both lyrics and music. I'm certainly not one of them. Without any brain scans or DNA tests I've figured out how my brain works btw, just from observation. Music I pay attention to, lyrics are neglected. I usually don't pay any attention to the sung words. I tried to write lyrics, but the ones I wrote completely suck. So I know what talents I have, and act accordingly.

Deja vu speaking, someday maybe brain scans will tell everybody the answer to that and to many other questions. And that would be good more than bad? And more people would be happy? And the world will be less dark? And maybe even less violent? Advanced brain scan science could maybe be used to detect evil greedy minds too? Fix sociopaths, etc. No?

False positives: be very afraid of that! Imagine you get some diagnosis just because you had a bad day when you had the scan. Also scans just show active parts of the brain while you do certain tasks. So you have to perform these tasks. You could have huge talent but if you have never excersized those tasks then your brain will still struggle at that, and the scan won't show your future potential. So imho this is a bad idea.

Honestly, science is completely in the dark when it comes to factual knowledge of how the brain actually works.