Studio monitors - Genelec 8020 vs Genelec 8030 vs Adam A7

[ATN69]

Don't buy anything you can't try. Just because some monitors are popular doesn't mean you will like them. What if you do buy them and you realise you have wasted money?

I agree, but unfortunately the existing music shops here in Hong Kong have a very weird approach when it comes to studio and recording stuff. Guitars, Pianos, Keyboards and other instruments are on display and you can try them out. They don't have any show room or demo options for studio related stuff. They don't even have much of that in stock and you have to order what you want. I have no choice but to buy things I couldn't demo. I have a friend who is now CEO of Pama Studios in Sweden. They use Genelec and even sell Genelec monitors. Next time I am in Sweden I will try to listen to them for real. Genelec is very pricy so I would love to see them before I buy.

I bought my M-Audio BX8 and my Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 from a music shop here and I didn't have any chance to demo them. Fortunately the BX8 are not bad for their price range and the Scarlet 2i2 is also good. Guess I was just lucky

[himalaya]

This problem is another reason I like the A7 because the bass ports are located on the front. Those bass frequences doesn't bounce into the closest wall.

You are right. That's the reason you'd have more issues placing the Genelecs correctly, especially in a small room , where space is at a premium. Ideally, you'd want them placed away from the wall. The Adams A7 can be more forgiving due to the port being at the front of the speaker.

[digidennis]

For what its worth, i have a pair of 1029A that i still use and have had in use for about 20 years, never had an issue. I dont know the genelecs current build quality though.
A little low in the bass though but good for near field.

[bmanic]

This problem is another reason I like the A7 because the bass ports are located on the front. Those bass frequences doesn't bounce into the closest wall.

You are right. That's the reason you'd have more issues placing the Genelecs correctly, especially in a small room , where space is at a premium. Ideally, you'd want them placed away from the wall. The Adams A7 can be more forgiving due to the port being at the front of the speaker.

.. guys, you do understand that the actuall bass frequencies do NOT come out of the ports, right? Pretty much 100% of monitors in this price range are omnidirectional below about 150 to 200Hz. You'll need to go into the 5 figure territory to get hold of cardioid bass radiation.

Thus Genelec themselves recommend that the monitor is close to the wall.. unless you have the luxury of a HUGE room, in which case you can choose to have them further from the wall (minimum of 1.1 meter).

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/f ... e_2017.pdf

[thecontrolcentre]

For what its worth, i have a pair of 1029A that i still use and have had in use for about 20 years, never had an issue. I dont know the genelecs current build quality though.
A little low in the bass though but good for near field.

I have the same monitors. I added the 1091A sub to mine, and they sound suberb (they're designed to match each other). Had mine for 20 years now. Worth every penny.

[bmanic]

Quality control of Genelec is still second to none in my opinion. I had the 1029A + 1091A sub for almost 10 years.. then I switched to 8030 + 7050A sub (now discontinued) and have been with Genelec ever since.

There are quite a few annoying aspects of Genelec though. They are very mid-forward monitors so if that's not your thing then I can't recommend them. I'd describe the ADAM A7 as the exact opposite.. they are what I'd call "mid recessed", at least that's how I remember them and that's how I'd describe the newer A7X range. Not sure about the current model though.

I've never liked the ADAM sound though so I don't have much to say on these.

I kind of like the Genelec sound but the main reason I've stayed with them for years is because they are so friggin rock solid. I've yet to encounter a broken Genelec speaker. I've worked with probably 20 to 30 pairs over the years and I've never come across an owner who has heard of a broken pair. I do see posts about broken Genelecs on the interwebs but as I've never experienced one personally I take that information very much to heart. I've seen and heard a bunch of broken other brands though.. in fact, I think Genelec is the only brand I haven't encountered broken yet. Evereything else has crapped out at least once.

Also a good indicator is how well the used prices stay high over the years. Ironically I could now sell my 8030 pair for more money than what I paid for them brand new. The used prices have kept up with inflation it seems and are only about 30% less than a new pair.

So yeah, Genelec monitors are definitely "the real deal" but it's important to note that they are NOT what I'd call ''flat''. They have a very distinct sound of their own and thus divide the userbase. Some like them a lot, some hate them and some tolerate them (I fall into this category).

Cheers!
bM

[himalaya]

.. guys, you do understand that ....

Yes, sure.

However, common wisdom states that rear-ported speakers should be placed away from the wall. How individual companies and designs approach this is another matter.

Ports often are placed in the front baffle, and may thus transmit unwanted midrange frequencies reflected from within the box. If undersized, a port may also generate "wind noise" or "chuffing", due to turbulence around the port openings at high air speeds. Enclosures with a rear-facing port mask these effects to some extent, but they cannot be placed directly against a wall without causing audible problems. They require some free space around the port so they can perform as intended.

[ATN69]

This problem is another reason I like the A7 because the bass ports are located on the front. Those bass frequences doesn't bounce into the closest wall.

You are right. That's the reason you'd have more issues placing the Genelecs correctly, especially in a small room , where space is at a premium. Ideally, you'd want them placed away from the wall. The Adams A7 can be more forgiving due to the port being at the front of the speaker.

.. guys, you do understand that the actuall bass frequencies do NOT come out of the ports, right? Pretty much 100% of monitors in this price range are omnidirectional below about 150 to 200Hz. You'll need to go into the 5 figure territory to get hold of cardioid bass radiation.

Thus Genelec themselves recommend that the monitor is close to the wall.. unless you have the luxury of a HUGE room, in which case you can choose to have them further from the wall (minimum of 1.1 meter).

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/f ... e_2017.pdf

I don't know why Genelec recomend that for their monitors but in part they are referring to the boundary effect. The general idea about monitor placement from the back wall is explained here,

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/studio ... sitioning/

3. Create space between the monitors and the rear wall.
Because bass frequencies project outward in all directions…much of that sound travels backwards and reflects off the rear wall of your room.

The problem is, when it recombines with the direct sound from the monitors…

The “in-phase“ frequencies get amplified, and the “out-of-phase“ frequencies cancel out. This principle is known as the boundary effect.

To solve the problem, pro studios often build their monitors directly into the wall, thus eliminating all rear reflections. (Here’s an example).

However, since this solution is far too expensive for home studios…

The next best option is to create the maximum separation between the wall and the monitors that the room-size will allow. For most rooms, that’s between 1-2 feet.

This won’t SOLVE the problem, but it will lessen it somewhat, by reducing the strength of the reflections.

Another useful trick is to use monitors with FRONT bass ports, such as the Adam Audio A7X, because unlike rear-facing bass ports, they direct a larger portion of the energy forward, AWAY from the walls.

In really small rooms, these monitors save space by allowing you to position them closer to the wall.

[bmanic]

.. guys, you do understand that ....

Yes, sure.

However, common wisdom states that rear-ported speakers should be placed away from the wall. How individual companies and designs approach this is another matter.

Ports often are placed in the front baffle, and may thus transmit unwanted midrange frequencies reflected from within the box. If undersized, a port may also generate "wind noise" or "chuffing", due to turbulence around the port openings at high air speeds. Enclosures with a rear-facing port mask these effects to some extent, but they cannot be placed directly against a wall without causing audible problems. They require some free space around the port so they can perform as intended.

Sure.. that's why Genelec state that you should leave 5cm minimum. But that is 5cm!!

I just want to squash a common myth that gets regurgitated on the internet over and over again when it comes to ported monitors. When people say you can't place them next to walls, many misunderstand that and think half a meter or more when in fact we are talking a few centimeters.

This is how it sounded from your context as well.. that ATN69 shouldn't consider the Genelec due to his room size because it can't be placed close to the wall. I wanted to bust that wrong information right here and now before it spreads.

[bmanic]

This problem is another reason I like the A7 because the bass ports are located on the front. Those bass frequences doesn't bounce into the closest wall.

You are right. That's the reason you'd have more issues placing the Genelecs correctly, especially in a small room , where space is at a premium. Ideally, you'd want them placed away from the wall. The Adams A7 can be more forgiving due to the port being at the front of the speaker.

.. guys, you do understand that the actuall bass frequencies do NOT come out of the ports, right? Pretty much 100% of monitors in this price range are omnidirectional below about 150 to 200Hz. You'll need to go into the 5 figure territory to get hold of cardioid bass radiation.

Thus Genelec themselves recommend that the monitor is close to the wall.. unless you have the luxury of a HUGE room, in which case you can choose to have them further from the wall (minimum of 1.1 meter).

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/f ... e_2017.pdf

I don't know why Genelec recomend that for their monitors but in part they are referring to the boundary effect. The general idea about monitor placement from the back wall is explained here,

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/studio ... sitioning/

3. Create space between the monitors and the rear wall.
Because bass frequencies project outward in all directions…much of that sound travels backwards and reflects off the rear wall of your room.

The problem is, when it recombines with the direct sound from the monitors…

The “in-phase“ frequencies get amplified, and the “out-of-phase“ frequencies cancel out. This principle is known as the boundary effect.

To solve the problem, pro studios often build their monitors directly into the wall, thus eliminating all rear reflections. (Here’s an example).

However, since this solution is far too expensive for home studios…

The next best option is to create the maximum separation between the wall and the monitors that the room-size will allow. For most rooms, that’s between 1-2 feet.

This won’t SOLVE the problem, but it will lessen it somewhat, by reducing the strength of the reflections.

Another useful trick is to use monitors with FRONT bass ports, such as the Adam Audio A7X, because unlike rear-facing bass ports, they direct a larger portion of the energy forward, AWAY from the walls.

In really small rooms, these monitors save space by allowing you to position them closer to the wall.

Hmm.. you as an acustician should know better than anybody else that if you have a small space, you MUST keep the monitor very close to the wall (1-2 feet might still be within the safe zone though). Why? Exactly due to the boundary effect you just described. If you move the monitor further from the wall than a few feet you'll still get the boundary effect (there is NO ESCAPING THIS) but you will have made it worse. You get MORE dips and valleys in critical areas than you would have being close to the wall.

In fact, as long as you are within a sensible distance from the wall (not more than half a meter or so) this is your most powerful "tuning" weapon for a small room and what everybody should do right at the get-go. Get a calibration mic and the free Room EQ Wizard then tweak for best bass/low-mid response by slightly moving the monitors between 5 to 50cm from the back wall. You very quickly notice how everything goes downhill if you stray further from the wall than that. If you end up in 80 to 90cm from the wall you quickly end up with a very weird frequency response.

EDIT:

TL;DR: You can NOT avoid the boundary effect. It is always there. You can minizie the amount of peaks and valleys and have some control over how often they happen and where they are located on the frequency spectrum by carefully placing the monitor at an optimum distance from the rear wall. In a small room, this distance is usually right next to the wall or a maximum of about half a meter.

[ATN69]

Hmm.. you as an acustician should know better than anybody else that if you have a small space, you MUST keep the monitor very close to the wall (1-2 feet might still be within the safe zone though). Why? Exactly due to the boundary effect you just described. If you move the monitor further from the wall than a few feet you'll still get the boundary effect (there is NO ESCAPING THIS) but you will have made it worse. You get MORE dips and valleys in critical areas than you would have being close to the wall.

In fact, as long as you are within a sensible distance from the wall (not more than half a meter or so) this is your most powerful "tuning" weapon for a small room and what everybody should do right at the get-go. Get a calibration mic and the free Room EQ Wizard then tweak for best bass/low-mid response by slightly moving the monitors between 5 to 50cm from the back wall. You very quickly notice how everything goes downhill if you stray further from the wall than that. If you end up in 80 to 90cm from the wall you quickly end up with a very weird frequency response.

I am keeping the monitors about a feet from my wall. I have a small room so I have no other choice. I sort of calibrated my position of the monitors by using low frequent sound, then I moved my monitors until I had as little impact from the boundary effect as I could get. This is why in a pro recording studio you normally have bass traps behind the monitors. I agree that you can't solve the boundary effect by simply more the monitors further and further away from the back wall. You would need a huge room and by that you would end up having other acoustic problems instead. You need dampers or bass traps of some kind to solve the problem.

My problem where I live is that I rent the ground floor of a house and the land lord doesn't allow me to put up anything on the walls. I am now trying to build some frames on stands that doesn't have to be attached to the wall. Problem with that is to keep them small but still efficient.

When I tested the Adam A7 here right in my music room I found less issues with reflections from the back wall. One reason might be that the Adam have less bass levels due to it's size and design. My M-Audio BX8 are more bass heavy and they still sound bit boomy despite the best placement I could get.

[Liero]

There are quite a few annoying aspects of Genelec though. They are very mid-forward monitors so if that's not your thing then I can't recommend them. I'd describe the ADAM A7 as the exact opposite.. they are what I'd call "mid recessed", at least that's how I remember them and that's how I'd describe the newer A7X range. Not sure about the current model though.

Over the years I've come to trust your ears and opinions a lot, bmanic, because I've agreed on many things, but this is the weirdest thing I've ever heard you say!

Genelec's "mid-forward"???

I have the exact same models as you and they are one of the most "loudness curve" near-field critical-listening studio monitors I've ever heard - and I'm listening with all DIP switches off in an acoustically treated room with plenty of bass traps to avoid buildups. Anyway, I constantly have to heavily reduce the mid frequencies after I've mixed something with the Genelecs, because it's so extremely difficult to get something to sound honky with them.

The Gen's are very pleasing to the ear, tho. I probably get the least amount of ear fatigue from mixing with Genelecs.

My tip to OP: You don't need a sub with either the 8020 or 8030 unless you do stuff like film sound design where you need to set the bass just right, use the money you would use on a sub on an alternative "crap box" speaker set like the Auratones or some good headphones like the HD600/650.

[bmanic]

Strange.. most people I know describe the Genelecs as "mid forward". I've actually EQd them slightly so that I get better translation and that eq is a wide Q bell at about 2.8kHz down by about 1dB.

The older model, 1029A was almost shrill. Same with 1030, 1031 (these I had too at one point for about a year) and 1032. They are all quite forward sounding.

.. but I do understand what you mean with "loudness curve".. it has that quality too but that is more due to slightly weird low-mids, as if there was a bit of a scoop there. Doesn't affect the high mids though. Those are definitely a bit forward sounding. I suspect the main reason Genelec has always been attributed as a bit forward sounding is their amplifier design. There's some distortion there that seems to make them a bit aggressive. This is pure speculation on my part though but I've heard some modded genelecs where the amplifiers were upgraded and those lacked that quality.

Cheers!
bM

[mystran]

Strange.. most people I know describe the Genelecs as "mid forward". I've actually EQd them slightly so that I get better translation and that eq is a wide Q bell at about 2.8kHz down by about 1dB.

I have a pair of 8030 at home and I've been quite happy with just the dip switches in the speakers themselves (don't remember how they are setup, but I remember trying a few settings when I bought them and it make quite a difference). While the bass doesn't extend terribly far down (and "powerful" is not the word I'd use to describe it), it's quite pleasant in my opinion and I actually considered it an advantage when I was shopping as I feel like they are still quite usable as "full range speakers" while cutting just high enough not to cause too many low-end problems even in an untreated bedroom setting. With 8020 I'd definitely feel like I needed a sub, which would cause further problems in my use. YMMV.

Either way, in addition to the low-end considerations they definitely have somewhat of a "sound" (and I can definitely understand people describing that as "mid-forward") that might be somewhat of a "love or hate" thing, so anyone considering should definitely listen to them before buying. Personally I love them when I'm sitting on my desk in front of them (which is exactly what I bought them for, obviously), where as from a distance they sound kinda indifferent (which is to say they sound quite fine, but not something that would cause any great emotions one way or another; that might be a placement and/or room acoustics thing, but just saying).

[Liero]

Strange.. most people I know describe the Genelecs as "mid forward". I've actually EQd them slightly so that I get better translation and that eq is a wide Q bell at about 2.8kHz down by about 1dB.

The older model, 1029A was almost shrill. Same with 1030, 1031 (these I had too at one point for about a year) and 1032. They are all quite forward sounding.

.. but I do understand what you mean with "loudness curve".. it has that quality too but that is more due to slightly weird low-mids, as if there was a bit of a scoop there. Doesn't affect the high mids though. Those are definitely a bit forward sounding. I suspect the main reason Genelec has always been attributed as a bit forward sounding is their amplifier design. There's some distortion there that seems to make them a bit aggressive. This is pure speculation on my part though but I've heard some modded genelecs where the amplifiers were upgraded and those lacked that quality.

Cheers!
bM

Ok, I guess we just have a different definition of what "mid" is - I completely agree that the 2k-3k range (that is also the crossover frequency iirc) is unpleasant and forward. Strings, especially sampled strings are a bugger to mix on genelecs.

The mids I often have to attenuate afterwards with help from other speakers is the 200-600 range, which I guess are too easy get "smooth" sounding on Gen's.

Also, the 1029A was indeed shrill as hell, but I don't consider shrill to mean that it has too much mids, the 29's had very stingy treble/highs - the 5k-10k range was an ear-killer.