Pop Upright Piano
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- Banned
- 102 posts since 3 Apr, 2018
The Addictive Keys instruments can be configured for exactly the kind of sound you need.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 7 posts since 2 Jun, 2018
Cinesamples 35% off sale ends today and 8dio 40% off sale ends tomorrow! Seems like not enough time to decide whether to pull the trigger...
I also feel like I should have enough pianos with everything that comes with NI Komplete (Alicia's Keys for Yamaha, Grandeur for Steinway, The Gentleman for vintage upright, plus The Giant and Una Corda, and the Maverick for a Bechstein).
But that 8dio upright has a really nice tone, and is more deeply sampled than the NI stuff...
And then nothing else quite sounds like the Abbey Road Uprights (although thanks for the tip on the Adam Monroe piano--I think it's the same idea, but the room ambience and mics or maybe the reverb on the demos or just the piano itself makes the Abbey Road Upright more rich and creamy, to me)
Many people have good things to say about Synthology, but I hate iLoks...
I wish the Abbey Roads were sampled like the 8dio, or some of the other super pianos like the Hammersmith--then it would be a no brainer.
I also feel like I should have enough pianos with everything that comes with NI Komplete (Alicia's Keys for Yamaha, Grandeur for Steinway, The Gentleman for vintage upright, plus The Giant and Una Corda, and the Maverick for a Bechstein).
But that 8dio upright has a really nice tone, and is more deeply sampled than the NI stuff...
And then nothing else quite sounds like the Abbey Road Uprights (although thanks for the tip on the Adam Monroe piano--I think it's the same idea, but the room ambience and mics or maybe the reverb on the demos or just the piano itself makes the Abbey Road Upright more rich and creamy, to me)
Many people have good things to say about Synthology, but I hate iLoks...
I wish the Abbey Roads were sampled like the 8dio, or some of the other super pianos like the Hammersmith--then it would be a no brainer.
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12498 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
Hey, you and me both! One of my most diappointing purchases.pipedr wrote:I wish the Abbey Roads were sampled like the 8dio, or some of the other super pianos like the Hammersmith--then it would be a no brainer.
But you should understand, the Abbey Road uprights are definitely not modern sounding pop pianos at all. Even with the modern microphone options, they still sound like very old pianos and not very "pop" by any modern sense of the word.
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2015
I have the NI/Galaxy Definitive Pianos also (Grandeur/Maverick/Gentleman) along with the older Galaxy Vienna Bosendorfer and Bluthner Baby Grand. The Galaxy pianos are certainly very playable and smooth, with no sudden velocity jumps or dodgy tuning/buzzing etc. Really enjoy playing them - very even, responsive & dynamic (similar to the Ivory American Concert Grand) but I always seem let down listening back to solo stuff I do with them. There's a lack of dimension, air and resonance to the sound which even a modest upright acoustic piano has.
I think it has to do with the way they are sampled - from how I understand it, multiple velocity samples with the sustain pedal up, but some sort of hybrid sampling/modelling of the sustain pedal down resonances which are blended in with the pedal up samples when playing with the sustain pedal down. (they all have separate control over sustain resonance, which leads me to believe it is a separate resonance component, as opposed to discreet multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down).
The Thomas Scarbee produced Alicia's Keys (a favourite of mine) appears to have approached things differently, with separate multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down & up. More authentic to my ears. Then again, I've heard people complain about how the Alicia's Keys piano handles re-pedalling, so I guess it's hard to nail it all.
AFAIK, the 8dio approach is the same as the Thomas Scarbee produced Alicia's Keys piano - separate multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down & up, which is why they have such an authentic sound (Ditto the Imperfect Samples, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Impact Soundworks Pearl Yamaha C7 and CineSamples pianos). Then again, there are playability and pedalling issues/compromises with this method!
I think it has to do with the way they are sampled - from how I understand it, multiple velocity samples with the sustain pedal up, but some sort of hybrid sampling/modelling of the sustain pedal down resonances which are blended in with the pedal up samples when playing with the sustain pedal down. (they all have separate control over sustain resonance, which leads me to believe it is a separate resonance component, as opposed to discreet multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down).
The Thomas Scarbee produced Alicia's Keys (a favourite of mine) appears to have approached things differently, with separate multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down & up. More authentic to my ears. Then again, I've heard people complain about how the Alicia's Keys piano handles re-pedalling, so I guess it's hard to nail it all.
AFAIK, the 8dio approach is the same as the Thomas Scarbee produced Alicia's Keys piano - separate multi-velocity samples of each note with the sustain pedal down & up, which is why they have such an authentic sound (Ditto the Imperfect Samples, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Impact Soundworks Pearl Yamaha C7 and CineSamples pianos). Then again, there are playability and pedalling issues/compromises with this method!
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 7 posts since 2 Jun, 2018
And so, I bought...
The 1901 Upright Piano from 8dio.
And there are many things which I like much better compared to the Gentleman.
The sustain notes are great! Resonant in a much richer fashion than in The Gentleman (I assume it is a modeled sustain in that piano, with sampled "resonance"--not sure what that means). In the future, I'm going to be looking for sustain pedal down samples in any sampled piano I get, because this so far sounds the best to me. (Addictive Keys was kind enough to authorize a 10 day demo, and I think their modeled sustain is better than NI/Galaxy's, but still not in the same class).
The piano also sounds more 3dimensional to me. I'm guessing this has to do with the room and ambient mics used, compared to what I guess is a close mic only in The Gentleman. Even though you can slap on a convolution reverb to the Gentleman--to my ears, there's something more realized when you have actual room mics. (but also, even the hammer mic solo'd in the 1901 Upright gives more of a sense of space than The Gentleman, so I think The Gentleman must have been recorded in a specific way, maybe to sit within a mix rather than function as a solo instrument)
Some things are as expected--those p/pp notes are really lovely. Just like what you hear in the demo. The mics and reverb and tape options are really cool. They all change the color of the sound in noticeable ways.
Some things not expected: The piano does get jangly when you play forte. Not like the Abbey Roads Upright or the Adam Monroe one. But you definitely know you're playing an old upright. This also means it's a little out of tune, which I can really notice playing octaves below middle C. This is not necessarily a bad thing--it gives the piano character, and it's not so pronounced that you're boxed into a corner.
There are some surprises when I play it, compared to The Gentleman. That C above middle C can get a little chorus-y, noodling around I found a C#major triad that jumped out, and one pedal down sustain note (forget which one) seemed to fade out unnaturally fast. I wonder if this is because of the programming or the number of velocity layers? (The Gentleman claims up to 18 velocity layers)--maybe this is consistent with what CGR feels about the other 8dio pianos.
All in all, I'm happy with it. It gives me an instrument that's different from what I've got, particularly in the areas I wanted it to be different (sustain, sense of space). Not sure if it will beat out The Gentleman in the final mix of the song I'm working on (my production partner actually prefers The Gentleman at first listen--it is a very good piano). It does seem to be the most "deeply" sampled upright out there at the moment (haven't even touched the una corda or half damper or prepared piano stuff yet).
I suppose every piano and even sample libraries of the same piano are going to be different.
But now I've got a taste for what these newer bigger libraries can do, and will be building my collection.
I picked up The Hammersmith for a Steinway Grand, as it seems to be universally liked. I'm also looking at the Ravenscroft 275 and Garritan CFX--but these might all be similar in terms of a big, super clean grand piano sound. As far as completing a range in my piano palette, it seems like 8dio's 1985 Passionate piano (Yamaha C5 I think) or even it's own 1928 Steinway might be more different in sound (more warm and intimate) compared to the difference between Hammersmith and Ravenscroft or CFX.
The 1901 Upright Piano from 8dio.
And there are many things which I like much better compared to the Gentleman.
The sustain notes are great! Resonant in a much richer fashion than in The Gentleman (I assume it is a modeled sustain in that piano, with sampled "resonance"--not sure what that means). In the future, I'm going to be looking for sustain pedal down samples in any sampled piano I get, because this so far sounds the best to me. (Addictive Keys was kind enough to authorize a 10 day demo, and I think their modeled sustain is better than NI/Galaxy's, but still not in the same class).
The piano also sounds more 3dimensional to me. I'm guessing this has to do with the room and ambient mics used, compared to what I guess is a close mic only in The Gentleman. Even though you can slap on a convolution reverb to the Gentleman--to my ears, there's something more realized when you have actual room mics. (but also, even the hammer mic solo'd in the 1901 Upright gives more of a sense of space than The Gentleman, so I think The Gentleman must have been recorded in a specific way, maybe to sit within a mix rather than function as a solo instrument)
Some things are as expected--those p/pp notes are really lovely. Just like what you hear in the demo. The mics and reverb and tape options are really cool. They all change the color of the sound in noticeable ways.
Some things not expected: The piano does get jangly when you play forte. Not like the Abbey Roads Upright or the Adam Monroe one. But you definitely know you're playing an old upright. This also means it's a little out of tune, which I can really notice playing octaves below middle C. This is not necessarily a bad thing--it gives the piano character, and it's not so pronounced that you're boxed into a corner.
There are some surprises when I play it, compared to The Gentleman. That C above middle C can get a little chorus-y, noodling around I found a C#major triad that jumped out, and one pedal down sustain note (forget which one) seemed to fade out unnaturally fast. I wonder if this is because of the programming or the number of velocity layers? (The Gentleman claims up to 18 velocity layers)--maybe this is consistent with what CGR feels about the other 8dio pianos.
All in all, I'm happy with it. It gives me an instrument that's different from what I've got, particularly in the areas I wanted it to be different (sustain, sense of space). Not sure if it will beat out The Gentleman in the final mix of the song I'm working on (my production partner actually prefers The Gentleman at first listen--it is a very good piano). It does seem to be the most "deeply" sampled upright out there at the moment (haven't even touched the una corda or half damper or prepared piano stuff yet).
I suppose every piano and even sample libraries of the same piano are going to be different.
But now I've got a taste for what these newer bigger libraries can do, and will be building my collection.
I picked up The Hammersmith for a Steinway Grand, as it seems to be universally liked. I'm also looking at the Ravenscroft 275 and Garritan CFX--but these might all be similar in terms of a big, super clean grand piano sound. As far as completing a range in my piano palette, it seems like 8dio's 1985 Passionate piano (Yamaha C5 I think) or even it's own 1928 Steinway might be more different in sound (more warm and intimate) compared to the difference between Hammersmith and Ravenscroft or CFX.
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2015
Congratulations on your purchase!
You've nailed it with your comment about the 8dio Upright being more 3 dimensional than the NI Gentleman. No doubt due to the sustain pedal down samples, and mic options.
The Definitive Pianos (Granduer, Maverick, Gentleman) are very even and dynamic to play, but do lack that 3-D ness (even after applying Convolution or Algorithmic reverbs) which a real acoustic piano has. Hard to get a realistic room sound by slapping a reverb on a close mic'd piano I've found. In summary:
• Playability, consistency, dynamics & efficiency on computer resources: The Gentleman
• Tone, resonance, flexibility & realism: The 8dio pianos
FWIW, I'd go with the Garritan Abbey Road CFX full version over the Ravenscroft 275, especially if you like the ambience of the space the piano was sampled in. I found the mic options in the Ravenscroft didn't really change the sound/ambience as much as I'd hoped. I had the Ravenscroft 275 for almost a year - really wanted to love it, and those demos are impressive and convincing, but I ended up selling my copy. Great to play as per the NI The Definitive Pianos, but quite a modern cold/clinical tone that I couldn't get along with. I like more 'movement' and character in my piano sounds, and find the Garritan Abbey Road CFX equally playable & dynamic, but with a beautiful resonance & the natural ambience of Abbey Road Studios. I also own the Hammersmith Pro, which I use often and really like, but I think the Garritan Abbey Road CFX is different enough to own both, and the top end of the Garritan CFX is superb, and more open and resonant than the Hammersmith Steinway to my ears.
You've nailed it with your comment about the 8dio Upright being more 3 dimensional than the NI Gentleman. No doubt due to the sustain pedal down samples, and mic options.
The Definitive Pianos (Granduer, Maverick, Gentleman) are very even and dynamic to play, but do lack that 3-D ness (even after applying Convolution or Algorithmic reverbs) which a real acoustic piano has. Hard to get a realistic room sound by slapping a reverb on a close mic'd piano I've found. In summary:
• Playability, consistency, dynamics & efficiency on computer resources: The Gentleman
• Tone, resonance, flexibility & realism: The 8dio pianos
FWIW, I'd go with the Garritan Abbey Road CFX full version over the Ravenscroft 275, especially if you like the ambience of the space the piano was sampled in. I found the mic options in the Ravenscroft didn't really change the sound/ambience as much as I'd hoped. I had the Ravenscroft 275 for almost a year - really wanted to love it, and those demos are impressive and convincing, but I ended up selling my copy. Great to play as per the NI The Definitive Pianos, but quite a modern cold/clinical tone that I couldn't get along with. I like more 'movement' and character in my piano sounds, and find the Garritan Abbey Road CFX equally playable & dynamic, but with a beautiful resonance & the natural ambience of Abbey Road Studios. I also own the Hammersmith Pro, which I use often and really like, but I think the Garritan Abbey Road CFX is different enough to own both, and the top end of the Garritan CFX is superb, and more open and resonant than the Hammersmith Steinway to my ears.
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12498 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
The Hammersmith is one I just couldn't get on with tonally and I really wanted to love it. Especially because it had the mono D19 microphone position. But there's just a lot of top end there. As I understand it, that's just the sound of the source piano in the room (i.e. not EQ) but it just leans too heavily towards the bright end of the spectrum for my particular tastes.
The Garritan Abbey Road CFX has interested me, but I always just assumed it was more geared towards classical playing with their mic'ing approach and room (Studio A at Abbey Road vs. the smaller Studio B). I'm still holding out the faintest of hope that Garritan could capture the uprights in Studio B in a way that Cinesamples could not, but I suspect there's probably some licensing deal that may be preventing that, or a lack of interest on Garritan's side.
I really love the Ravenscroft 275. The playability and realism is top notch IMO, and I don't take issue with the mic'ing options. I find a combination of the close and side/room microphones to work very well for what I'm usually looking for. I like their Steinway too. I think VI Labs is probably my favorite overall piano library developer and I'd love to see some uprights from them.
The Garritan Abbey Road CFX has interested me, but I always just assumed it was more geared towards classical playing with their mic'ing approach and room (Studio A at Abbey Road vs. the smaller Studio B). I'm still holding out the faintest of hope that Garritan could capture the uprights in Studio B in a way that Cinesamples could not, but I suspect there's probably some licensing deal that may be preventing that, or a lack of interest on Garritan's side.
I really love the Ravenscroft 275. The playability and realism is top notch IMO, and I don't take issue with the mic'ing options. I find a combination of the close and side/room microphones to work very well for what I'm usually looking for. I like their Steinway too. I think VI Labs is probably my favorite overall piano library developer and I'd love to see some uprights from them.
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2015
Check out what this guy can do with the Garritan CFX:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthread ... gh_Project
The piano also works well in more contemporary/pop tracks, such as Tracks 029 and 033 on this album of production music I produced recently:
http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/album/m ... l-Journeys
The Ravenscroft 275 is certainly one of the most comprehensive & playable sampled pianos on the market. The muted samples are also fun to experiment with. It's a very modern, polished sounding piano produced with different techniques and materials. I've heard some incredibly realistic demos & videos of players using it in the Jazz genre, and it sounds wonderful. The piano just wasn't for me for the music I create I guess - really just a personal taste thing. The developer Lance Herring has a long history of sampling acoustic pianos, and really knows his stuff, and I agree he'd do a great job with an upright piano.
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthread ... gh_Project
The piano also works well in more contemporary/pop tracks, such as Tracks 029 and 033 on this album of production music I produced recently:
http://www.motionfocusmusic.com/album/m ... l-Journeys
The Ravenscroft 275 is certainly one of the most comprehensive & playable sampled pianos on the market. The muted samples are also fun to experiment with. It's a very modern, polished sounding piano produced with different techniques and materials. I've heard some incredibly realistic demos & videos of players using it in the Jazz genre, and it sounds wonderful. The piano just wasn't for me for the music I create I guess - really just a personal taste thing. The developer Lance Herring has a long history of sampling acoustic pianos, and really knows his stuff, and I agree he'd do a great job with an upright piano.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 7 posts since 2 Jun, 2018
Nice music, CGR! What mics did you use on the Garritan CFX? What did you use for the strings and guitar?
The CFX does sound nice and warm...made me go back to play Alicia's Keys, also a nice Yamaha (a C3, I believe). $60 for the CFX Lite version seems like a good deal for the piano you get...but maybe not so different from Alicia's Keys for a close mic'd Yamaha.
I am learning that these pianos each do sound just a little different, even if it's from the same instrument, such as Hammersmith vs. Ni/Galaxy's Grandeur, even with just the close mics on a Steinway D.
So I guess you can never have too many...but how many is enough? haha.
The CFX does sound nice and warm...made me go back to play Alicia's Keys, also a nice Yamaha (a C3, I believe). $60 for the CFX Lite version seems like a good deal for the piano you get...but maybe not so different from Alicia's Keys for a close mic'd Yamaha.
I am learning that these pianos each do sound just a little different, even if it's from the same instrument, such as Hammersmith vs. Ni/Galaxy's Grandeur, even with just the close mics on a Steinway D.
So I guess you can never have too many...but how many is enough? haha.
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2015
Cheers pipedr - appreciate the kind words.
Here's some screen shots of my CFX settings. I've only ever owned the full version, and I always include some amount of the ambient mics in the mix (which aren't available in the CFX Lite version).
No extra reverb added to the piano, but there is a touch of Valhalla Room (Large Room) on the master output to help gel everything. Guitar is Hephaestus sounds Spanish Guitar from Sampleism, and Strings are the free Pocket Blackus Solo Cello.
Here's some screen shots of my CFX settings. I've only ever owned the full version, and I always include some amount of the ambient mics in the mix (which aren't available in the CFX Lite version).
No extra reverb added to the piano, but there is a touch of Valhalla Room (Large Room) on the master output to help gel everything. Guitar is Hephaestus sounds Spanish Guitar from Sampleism, and Strings are the free Pocket Blackus Solo Cello.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 7 posts since 2 Jun, 2018
Thanks for the screenshots!
It's a really nice sounding piano, in your hands. Nice playing, and you did a lot with a free?! cello!
...and then there comes the Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D. Right after I got Hammersmith, which does sound very nice...but yes, kind of cold.
It doesn't sound quite like the Steinway I'm used to (I have a rebuilt Steinway A). I kind of have more fun playing the 8dio 1901 Upright, even with it's imperfections.
I like the tone of the Embertone Steinway in the demos, and even the specs seem to have Hammersmith beat and at a lower price, too.
It's a really nice sounding piano, in your hands. Nice playing, and you did a lot with a free?! cello!
...and then there comes the Embertone Walker 1955 Steinway D. Right after I got Hammersmith, which does sound very nice...but yes, kind of cold.
It doesn't sound quite like the Steinway I'm used to (I have a rebuilt Steinway A). I kind of have more fun playing the 8dio 1901 Upright, even with it's imperfections.
I like the tone of the Embertone Steinway in the demos, and even the specs seem to have Hammersmith beat and at a lower price, too.
