Cadences in Electronic Music & EDM

[shawshawraw]

I find it the most helpful to analyze and remember chord progression formulae in relationship with bar position. The same ii V I gives different feelings when placed at, say, Bars 2-3 against Bars 1-2. But this won't mean anything happening on Bar 4 is automatically a 'cadence' because it's on Bar 4. Music is complex and everything depends on everything... like every language has quirks!

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Calling a cadence "formalized" is funny. And since ANYTHING can be a chord progression, we will end in a mud where anything means everything and nothing at the same time.

You'd be surprised at how "formalized" your "modern music" (whatever that means) is, if you care to analyze it with some knowledge.

Classical cadences are formalized for sure. Are you telling me Rock and Pop have a dedicated nomenclature too or that they just may use some of cadences below if we analyse them? If the former is the case, I wouldn't know of such dedicated rock cadences and neither does the wiki, but maybe you have some references to formalized Rock or Pop cadences where they use the word "cadence" in particular? If the latter is your case, that Rock and Pop may use classical cadences, then it is trivial and actually illustrates my point: If a Rock/Pop/EDM cadence can be any of the below and anything else, it is a mud and thus I will stick to chord progressions, thank you

1.1 Authentic cadence
1.1.1 Perfect authentic cadence
1.1.2 Imperfect authentic cadence
1.1.3 Evaded cadence
1.2 Half cadence
1.2.1 Phrygian half cadence
1.2.2 Lydian cadence
1.2.3 Burgundian cadences
1.2.4 Plagal half cadence
1.3 Plagal cadence
1.3.1 Minor plagal cadence
1.4 Deceptive cadence
2 Other classifications
2.1 Inverted cadence
2.2 Rhythmic classifications
2.3 Picardy third
2.4 Upper leading-tone cadence
3 In medieval and Renaissance polyphony
3.1 Clausula vera
3.2 Plagal cadence
3.3 Pause
3.4 Evaded cadence
3.5 Corelli cadence
3.6 English cadence
3.7 Landini cadence
4 Common Practice Period
4.1 Authentic cadences and half cadences
4.2 Plagal cadences
4.3 Deceptive cadences
5. Classical cadential trill

Logic is quite simply in this case: A frygian half-cadence (yummy) is formalized to an extent where you can say what it is, and what it isn't. In which styles it used and in which it isn't. Are there particular rock/pop/EDM cadences that fullfil the same conditions? To my knowledge any of the above could be an EDM cadence, or is there something an EDM/Rock/Pop cadence couldn't be?

[fmr]

Calling a cadence "formalized" is funny. And since ANYTHING can be a chord progression, we will end in a mud where anything means everything and nothing at the same time.

You'd be surprised at how "formalized" your "modern music" (whatever that means) is, if you care to analyze it with some knowledge.

Classical cadences are formalized for sure. Are you telling me Rock and Pop have a dedicated nomenclature too or that they just may use some of cadences below if we analyse them? If the former is the case, I wouldn't know of such dedicated rock cadences and neither does the wiki, but maybe you have some references to formalized Rock or Pop cadences where they use the word "cadence" in particular? If the latter is your case, that Rock and Pop may use classical cadences, then it is trivial and actually illustrates my point: If a Rock/Pop/EDM cadence can be any of the below and anything else, it is a mud and thus I will stick to chord progressions, thank you

1.1 Authentic cadence
1.1.1 Perfect authentic cadence
1.1.2 Imperfect authentic cadence
1.1.3 Evaded cadence
1.2 Half cadence
1.2.1 Phrygian half cadence
1.2.2 Lydian cadence
1.2.3 Burgundian cadences
1.2.4 Plagal half cadence
1.3 Plagal cadence
1.3.1 Minor plagal cadence
1.4 Deceptive cadence
2 Other classifications
2.1 Inverted cadence
2.2 Rhythmic classifications
2.3 Picardy third
2.4 Upper leading-tone cadence
3 In medieval and Renaissance polyphony
3.1 Clausula vera
3.2 Plagal cadence
3.3 Pause
3.4 Evaded cadence
3.5 Corelli cadence
3.6 English cadence
3.7 Landini cadence
4 Common Practice Period
4.1 Authentic cadences and half cadences
4.2 Plagal cadences
4.3 Deceptive cadences
5. Classical cadential trill

Logic is quite simply in this case: A frygian half-cadence (yummy) is formalized to an extent where you can say what it is, and what it isn't. In which styles it used and in which it isn't. Are there particular rock/pop/EDM cadences that fulfil the same conditions? To my knowledge any of the above could be an EDM cadence, or is there something an EDM/Rock/Pop cadence couldn't be?

First: The nomenclature wasn't given by any composer by any period. The "nomenclature" was given by music theorists. And they don't refer to any style of music in particular (believe it or not, each period had a lot of styles going on, very much like today). They simply refer mainly to the music of their period.
Second: A "cadence" is a punctuation of the musical speech, and as such, rock music has it, EDM has it, ANY KIND OF MUSIC has it (conscious or unconscious).
Third: Your list is a BS. I don't know where you pick it from nor do I care. You mix several concepts that shouldn't be mixed.

And I will refrain from going on. It seems you suffer from some kind of prejudice, and feel the need to lock music inside some "genre" and "style" boxes. Music is just music. You either use notes, in which case you will end in some kind of "formalization", want it or not, or you compose purely with sounds, in which case you will need some other way of "formalization" (unless you simply let it go in a chaotic way).

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

First: The nomenclature wasn't given by any composer by any period. The "nomenclature" was given by music theorists.

I did not imply anything about who made the nomeclatura, it is there in music books. And with high degrees of consensus afaik.

Second: A "cadence" is a punctuation of the musical speech, and as such, rock music has it, EDM has it, ANY KIND OF MUSIC has it (conscious or unconscious).

which I have said all the time, yes, just that there are no particular Rock/EDM cadence. Could be any on the list or more, therefore chord progressions will imply them all.

Third: Your list is a BS. I don't know where you pick it from nor do I care. You mix several concepts that shouldn't be mixed.

Yeah, well, the list is from the wiki and not contrary in particular what I know from my training and of standard textbooks. You can read about the types of cadences there. However, maybe you can add some "citation needed" if they allow it, but I think you should try another form of argument if you really want it to happen.

And I will refrain from going on. It seems you suffer from some kind of prejudice, and feel the need to lock music inside some "genre" and "style" boxes. Music is just music. You either use notes, in which case you will end in some kind of "formalization", want it or not, or you compose purely with sounds, in which case you will need some other way of "formalization" (unless you simply let it go in a chaotic way).

Well, my traning, the wiki and several textbooks on cadences would surely disagree about the extent to which classical cadences are boxed or not, and that it is pretty tight to my knowledge. The personal prejudice stuff is useless to me, but I guess you just need to patronize one way or the other. Not that I know what my offence is, really, but knock yourself out

[fmr]

Maybe my "training" (which was formal as well) has been broader, apparently. It included also musical analysis, and as such, I can recognize a cadence anywhere I see one. And no, cadences are NOT JUST "chord progressions" (I hate that expression more and more each day).

Let's pick something you are probably familiar with (as pretty much everyone is): The blues "chord progression".

Would you say that "chord progression" doesn't have a cadence? If you answer is yes it does, would you say the cadence is the whole chord progression?

[cryophonik]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but in EDM, rhythmic cadence is far more prevalent than harmonic cadence. The music is based on pretty simple and highly repetitive chord progressions that continue throughout the song and are much more akin with the "vamp" that Jan described earlier. Strong harmonic (i.e., "traditional") cadences are generally considered cheesy in EDM, so the combination of weak resolutions and endless repetition of the same few chords have a tendency to dilute anything that would resemble a harmonic cadence. The "punctuation" in EDM is mostly driven by exaggerated increases and sudden drops in energy that is largely driven by the rhythms (drum fills), plus filter sweeps, swooshes, pitch bends, blank space, etc. (i.e., dynamics).

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Would you say that "chord progression" doesn't have a cadence? If you answer is yes it does, would you say the cadence is the whole chord progression?

No, I would say chord progressions is a superordinate category under which classical cadences are members among other non-cadence members.

1. Not all progressions are abouts ending or pausing a song, so not all members are cadences in this functional sense. Thus there are cadences and other types of progressions as members.

2. Not all ways to end or pause a period falls under classical types and functionality of cadences. So we have classical cadences and unspecified cadences as members of this subcategory as well (ethnic or whatever).

The main point is that EBM and Rock have no particular members, but can imply all members, thus a good starting point for EBM is to stick to the superordinate category unless you are going for specific types of ending. There are progressions to continue a period and progressions to end them. Whether they fall under one or the other member is not restricted to Rock and EBM by styles, they can be anything, or wouldn't you say?

[fmr]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but in EDM, rhythmic cadence is far more prevalent than harmonic cadence. The music is based on pretty simple and highly repetitive chord progressions that continue throughout the song and are much more akin with the "vamp" that Jan described earlier. Strong harmonic (i.e., "traditional") cadences are generally considered cheesy in EDM, so the combination of weak resolutions and endless repetition of the same few chords have a tendency to dilute anything that would resemble a harmonic cadence. The "punctuation" in EDM is mostly driven by exaggerated increases and sudden drops in energy that is largely driven by the rhythms (drum fills), plus filter sweeps, swooshes, pitch bends, blank space, etc. (i.e., dynamics).

And... as you may probably have read in your "wikis", harmonic rhythm 8and rhythm "per se") has an important role in cadences. Here, I will quote it for you, since you seem to trust wiki so much:

"A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase."

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that EDM (as pretty much ANY KIND OF MUSIC) has cadences, and needs cadences?

[fmr]

Would you say that "chord progression" doesn't have a cadence? If you answer is yes it does, would you say the cadence is the whole chord progression?

No, I would say chord progressions is a superordinate category under which classical cadences are members among other non-cadence members.

1. Not all progressions are abouts ending or pausing a song, so not all members are cadences in this functional sense. Thus there are cadences and other types of progressions as members.

2. Not all ways to end or pause a period falls under classical types and functionality of cadences. So we have classical cadences and unspecified cadences as members of this subcategory as well (ethnic or whatever).

"Et voilà". I rest my case

[cryophonik]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but in EDM, rhythmic cadence is far more prevalent than harmonic cadence. The music is based on pretty simple and highly repetitive chord progressions that continue throughout the song and are much more akin with the "vamp" that Jan described earlier. Strong harmonic (i.e., "traditional") cadences are generally considered cheesy in EDM, so the combination of weak resolutions and endless repetition of the same few chords have a tendency to dilute anything that would resemble a harmonic cadence. The "punctuation" in EDM is mostly driven by exaggerated increases and sudden drops in energy that is largely driven by the rhythms (drum fills), plus filter sweeps, swooshes, pitch bends, blank space, etc. (i.e., dynamics).

And... as you may probably have read in your "wikis", harmonic rhythm has an important role in cadences. Here, I will quote it for you, since you seem to trus wiki so much:

"A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase."

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that EDM (as pretty much ANY KIND OF MUSIC) has cadences, and need cadences?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention anything about wiki and I'm not arguing against anything you said. Just stating my own observations as someone who has both studied music theory and has also created a good share of EDM.

[fmr]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but in EDM, rhythmic cadence is far more prevalent than harmonic cadence. The music is based on pretty simple and highly repetitive chord progressions that continue throughout the song and are much more akin with the "vamp" that Jan described earlier. Strong harmonic (i.e., "traditional") cadences are generally considered cheesy in EDM, so the combination of weak resolutions and endless repetition of the same few chords have a tendency to dilute anything that would resemble a harmonic cadence. The "punctuation" in EDM is mostly driven by exaggerated increases and sudden drops in energy that is largely driven by the rhythms (drum fills), plus filter sweeps, swooshes, pitch bends, blank space, etc. (i.e., dynamics).

And... as you may probably have read in your "wikis", harmonic rhythm has an important role in cadences. Here, I will quote it for you, since you seem to trus wiki so much:

"A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase."

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that EDM (as pretty much ANY KIND OF MUSIC) has cadences, and need cadences?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention anything about wiki and I'm not arguing against anything you said. Just stating my own observations as someone who has both studied music theory and has also created a good share of EDM.

Sorry, that answer was mistakenly addressed to you. I thought I was still answering TribeOfHǫfuð

[cryophonik]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but in EDM, rhythmic cadence is far more prevalent than harmonic cadence. The music is based on pretty simple and highly repetitive chord progressions that continue throughout the song and are much more akin with the "vamp" that Jan described earlier. Strong harmonic (i.e., "traditional") cadences are generally considered cheesy in EDM, so the combination of weak resolutions and endless repetition of the same few chords have a tendency to dilute anything that would resemble a harmonic cadence. The "punctuation" in EDM is mostly driven by exaggerated increases and sudden drops in energy that is largely driven by the rhythms (drum fills), plus filter sweeps, swooshes, pitch bends, blank space, etc. (i.e., dynamics).

And... as you may probably have read in your "wikis", harmonic rhythm has an important role in cadences. Here, I will quote it for you, since you seem to trus wiki so much:

"A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase."

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that EDM (as pretty much ANY KIND OF MUSIC) has cadences, and need cadences?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention anything about wiki and I'm not arguing against anything you said. Just stating my own observations as someone who has both studied music theory and has also created a good share of EDM.

Sorry, that answered was mistakenly addressed to you. I thought I was still answering TribeOfHǫfuð

Well, that makes more sense, then.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

"Et voilà". I rest my case

Well, you could have spared yourself a little annoyment if you had spotted this in my original post:

I see no reason but to call everything else in modern music chord progressions (except "turnarounds", which is the preferred term in Jazz) though there can be favored ways of ending or verse in Rock and Pop too, cadences, if you insist, but hardly that formalized. Just leave such old terms to museums like me and go chord progression instead.

That music is stuffed up its A with cadences in this sense, I would be the last to question. It was all about EDM/Rock having no particular members and thus free choice, why they could stick to any superordinate category. One could say that every way to end/pause an EDM period is a cadence and every cadence is a chord progression whose purpose is that. Classical or unspecified.

[fmr]

"Et voilà". I rest my case

Well, you could have spared yourself a little annoyment if you had spotted this in my original post:

I see no reason but to call everything else in modern music chord progressions (except "turnarounds", which is the preferred term in Jazz) though there can be favored ways of ending or verse in Rock and Pop too, cadences, if you insist, but hardly that formalized. Just leave such old terms to museums like me and go chord progression instead.

That music is stuffed of its A with cadences in this sense, I would be the last to question. It was all about EDM/Rock and having no particular members and thus free choice, why they could stick to any superordinate category. One could say that every way to end/pause an EDM period is a cadence and every cadence is a chord progression whose purpose is that. Classical or unspecified.

^^^ THIS ^^^ we can agree upon.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Great, man. I thought you were going to eat me