Upgrading audio interface - which one should I choose?

[pdxindy]

I only use RME...

[zvenx]

So I recently went thru this myself.

I have two systems, a pc and a mac.
On my PC I have a lynx two c, which I have had for well over a decade now and very happy with it.. Sounds Great and very important for me has low latencies.

On my mac I had NI's Komplete Audio 6, the previous generation, but it was starting to show its age, didn't have the best preamps and since it was on a 2014 macbook pro, with newer plugins I couldn't work properly with the low latencies I wanted.

Unless it is something very rhythmic like a loop or arp, that needs to be exactly on the beat to sync properly, I try not to quantize anything I play. So I like a latency low enough that I can play well knowing that it will be what it is, and will not need to be quantized (so when I hear that some people work at 512 sample buffer size I am in shock).

I have seen a few studies that said 10ms is the threshold.That is under 10ms, most people can't tell there is latency, but over 10ms most people can feel the latency (to varying degrees). Of course there are people who have said that they are quite sensitive to even smaller latencies than 10ms and since the human spectrum is so great, I believe them.

For me, around 8ms feels great....
on my lynx 2c that means I have my buffer set at 64, and I can work at 128 if necessary.

On the KA6, it was 64, because at 128, I was over 10ms and I could feel it and it felt odd. Required more takes etc...

Anyway I set about replacing the NI KA6 to work with my 'new' 2021 macbook pro.
I really wanted to get an RME because low latency for me is important for the reason mentioned above, and for sure, other than some thunderbolt audio devices, rme and lynx have drivers that deliver these low latencies and these drivers are notoriously stable.

The lowest priced Lynx that would work with my macbook pro was well over $2500... hell no.

The lowest RME was the BabyFacePro, which I saw a few second hand ones for around $850 or so..

Then I kept reading about Audient interfaces, for their preamps and sound, and that their latencies wasn't bad at all (see julian krause on youtube for instance).
I ended up buying the Audient ID24 and am mostly happy with it...
It sounds great (much much better than the NI KA6) and the preamps are really good, including the DI input. It actually has made me stop needing to use a 500 series set up I had for use on my macbook pro.

However at 128 the latency is over 10ms (just over) and at times I think I can feel it and at other times I am not sure if it is just placebo (I test it by switching to 64 sometimes to see how they feel. To be honest many times, 64 feels too perfect on the Audient).

By too perfect, using an analogy, I mean that whilst I like a low action on guitars and basses for instance, there is a point where it is too low and I prefer a slightly higher action so there is some resistance.. I play better that way.

That is how 64 on the audient feels to me sometimes. That it is just too perfect, not enough 'resistance'...

For curiosity, I borrowed a friends BabyFace over the weekend to a/b them... granted he has an older BabyFace, I definitely preferred the Audient in terms of clarity, less distortion on the outputs, better preamps, but the one thing the babyface had was lower latencies at the same buffer sample and I have to be honest, at 128, the rme just felt better to play either recording vsti's or guitars/basses.

But it was twice the price of the Audient.. Maybe one day I will eventually change the Audient for the RME (or maybe a lynx one day if they make a less expensive smaller version to the hilo). But I currently recommend the Audient with the caveat above.


Anyway, all this to say, consider the Audients too.
I highly recommend going to Julian Krause's youtube channel, he does a lot of reviews and seems to really know his stuff.
rsp

[Raketenbauer]

RME does driver support for years to come. Their Babyface from 2010 still gets driver and firmware updates.

[zvenx]

RME does driver support for years to come. Their Babyface from 2010 still gets driver and firmware updates.

Indeed.
the last lynx driver for my lynx two c I think was 2012.

rsp

[cryophonik]

Many people say that UA interfaces have better pre-amps. ...

I've never used or really even looked at the Volt and have no idea how it compares to the Focusrites, but I have an Apollo X6 tethered to a Twin X and they do indeed have excellent preamps. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that the Volt does not have the Unison preamps that the Solo, Twin X, X4, X6, etc. have, correct? When people talk about UA's better preamps, I believe they are referring to the Apollo series, which are indeed excellent IMO and the Unison technology is really great.

[runagate]

It depends on your use case. I've never used anything that had acceptable latency and have spent an embarrassing amount of time reading the epic long latency post that's on page 102 here:

https://gearspace.com/board/music-compu ... -base.html

I don't need analog inputs, though I have nice ones. What I do with DSP hurts DACs feelings and makes them bitter They obviously aren't designed to put up with my nonsense. I've given serious consideration to switching to Presonus Quantum in hopes that it would make a difference but my giant ogre fingers and bad vision make me afraid to swap in the mobo with thunderbolt headers I bought.

Focusrite actually develops proprietary drivers, in-house. We've never used Thesycon although it's true that some manufacturers do. Our Windows USB drivers perform very well, which is one of the reasons why there are more people working with Scarlett than any other USB audio interface range in the world.

John // Focusrite UK

I don't suppose that the dynamic convolution hardware from the distant past of Focusrite exists as software nowadays? I just remembered that, one of only 2 things I've never gotten my DSP-loving mitts on (the other being a Lexicon Vortex, something I still yearn for desperately)

[lfm]

How much you feel latency there is also about which daw you use?
- StudioOne uses en extra asio buffer for processing and also show how much RTL is
- Reaper uses extra asio buffers monitoring depending on plugin latencies currently in project

AddictiveDrums 2 uses 64 samples, so that will be added to project if there. Only VSTi I know do that. I think Waves has some piano also with latency in there.

Some daws has a smooth way to at least turn off PDC so those are not involved.
Cubase has asio guard, that also have an own system to include some plugins and instruments in that etc. I never bothered to learn it, just turned it off.

Samplitude had a masters degree you had to do to understand which monitor system to use to get low enough latency for recording. It has a full table of alternatives you had to check but easily accessible in gui as I recall. (10 years ago now so don't remember details).

When I first tried Reaper 2010, that was the moment I had to go from 128 to 64 samples asio buffer or serious delay feel.

Just some more things to think about....

[kritikon]

Just going off memory here - Steinberg UR22C running at 64 buffer gets 7mS latency or so. 128 was under 10mS. I'd have to go check to be sure though.

[Bombadil]

RME. They still support their old hardware, decades after release. I have the FF802, excellent sound, low latency, pretty much hassle free. I don't expect to need another audio interface.

[Uncle E]

The collection of the plugins that comes with Volt is more attractive as well

Worth it for the plugins. Virtual Bassist Dandy and Virtual Drummer Deep are two of UJAM's best, and they work great together. LX 480 Essential is a must-have. Oxide and Pure Plate are exceptional. I'm personally not a fan of Century Tube or PolyMAX but many people absolutely love them. Galaxy is great for dubby delays, plus the multi-taps are fun.

[BONES]

On the KA6, it was 64, because at 128, I was over 10ms and I could feel it and it felt odd. Required more takes etc...

I bet if you didn't know it was more than 10ms, you absolutely would not have noticed. Hardware synths have latency but you've never heard anyone say anything about it because they didn't know and couldn't tell. Scott Solida once did a big test of his basement full of hardware synths and found some were as much as 25ms. IIRC, the average might have been 19ms, yet nobody ever notices or complains. But once you know it's there, you convince yourself you can feel/hear it.

After all, sound travels 3.4m in 10ms, so that latency is the same as trying to keep in time with your drummer when you are 3.4m from his kit. Every musician would tell you that's not a problem at all - look at how spread out a symphony orchestra is.

I really wanted to get an RME because low latency for me is important for the reason mentioned above, and for sure, other than some thunderbolt audio devices, rme and lynx have drivers that deliver these low latencies and these drivers are notoriously stable.

I can get reliable performance with a 16 sample buffer from my Audient EVO 8 but I see no reason to run it as that level so we go for 128 samples on stage to ensure complete reliability.

I ended up buying the Audient ID24 and am mostly happy with it...
It sounds great (much much better than the NI KA6) and the preamps are really good, including the DI input. It actually has made me stop needing to use a 500 series set up I had for use on my macbook pro.

There you go, you put your bias aside and got a result, Well done!

However at 128 the latency is over 10ms (just over) and at times I think I can feel it and at other times I am not sure if it is just placebo (I test it by switching to 64 sometimes to see how they feel. To be honest many times, 64 feels too perfect on the Audient).

The original firmware had a bug that would randomly change the buffer and I'd never know if it was 16 or 128 and, because I didn't know, I didn't notice, either.

For curiosity, I borrowed a friends BabyFace over the weekend to a/b them... granted he has an older BabyFace, I definitely preferred the Audient in terms of clarity, less distortion on the outputs, better preamps, but the one thing the babyface had was lower latencies at the same buffer sample and I have to be honest, at 128, the rme just felt better to play either recording vsti's or guitars/basses.

You don't see the contradiction here? That the ID24 was "too perfect" with a 64 sample buffer but the RME was better at 128?

[blackoutmusicX]

The collection of the plugins that comes with Volt is more attractive as well

Worth it for the plugins. Virtual Bassist Dandy and Virtual Drummer Deep are two of UJAM's best, and they work great together. LX 480 Essential is a must-have. Oxide and Pure Plate are exceptional. I'm personally not a fan of Century Tube or PolyMAX but many people absolutely love them. Galaxy is great for dubby delays, plus the multi-taps are fun.

You're right, the plugin bundle is very tempting. I've almost decided to buy the Focusrite but having looked at the value of the plugins that Volt comes with until the end of September, it makes me reconsider my decision. I don't know... What prevents me from buying Volt is the lack of loopback. I think it's a useful option that I'd use often if I bought Focusrite.

[legendCNCD]

As a drummer I use 64 when I input drums, on my card its ~4ms. At 10ms I can feel already out of balance when playing either drums or keys.
Then again, I use 512 when mixing because of this ye olde machine. New machine has RME.
https://dawbench.com/images/dawbench-ll ... 1-2022.jpg

[BONES]

Worth it for the plugins. Virtual Bassist Dandy and Virtual Drummer Deep are two of UJAM's best, and they work great together.

That will depend very much on your needs. I own more than 25 Ujam plugins but those two never got past the trial stage. For my money Ujam's best are VB Rowdy and BM-Vice. With Rowdy running through Sphene I can do anything from Peter Hook to JJ Burnel and whilst we mostly use BM-Nemesis for what we do, BM-Vice is incredibly versatile and will suit a range of styles/genres. Honourable mention to VD-Heavy for great rock drums and VG Iron for awesome guitars.

[zerocrossing]

I think I’d probably go RME if I had to do it all over again, though I have an old FireWire UAD Apollo what works fine, and runs the plugins which are generally pretty good or very good. I just pop some old PCIe FireWire card in whatever PC I have built for me and it all seems to work perfectly. No need for a USB interface.

That said, what would someone buy if they didn’t use a USB interface these days? Are companies still making PCIe audio interfaces.