DAW benchmarks on new Mac M4 chip

[Sindikhate]

Who cares about intel really? Tune it to your hearts content and get 2x the performance while making a grilled cheese on top on the cpu. We’re here for the M4..
I’m interested in the thermal efficiency and noise of the m4 pro.

M4 Pro looks really good if you want to use an Apple machine. I do not know how important is compatibility to older software to you, but performance wise it is great indeed.

[Lerian]

.. and be careful who you listen to.

You behave like a fanboy. You come with a "trust me bro" argument in a data-driven conversation. I suggest you go do some real research before coming here throwing disinformation. If you use bad software - and ilok is a monument of how badly written a software can be - don't blame the CPU. If you had any idea about how actually software and x64 hardware works, you'd understand there's nothing in there that could cause "compatibility issues". It either works or it doesn't.

But anyway, arguing with fanboys is a waste of time. I suggest anyone who wants to upgrade their CPU to do some real in-depth research into the intel problems and how good AMD ryzen 7 and 9 are for audio, and weed out the fanboyism.

[Sindikhate]

.. and be careful who you listen to.

You behave like a fanboy. You come with a "trust me bro" argument in a data-driven conversation. I suggest you go do some real research before coming here throwing disinformation. If you use bad software - and ilok is a monument of how badly written a software can be - don't blame the CPU. If you had any idea about how actually software and x86 hardware works, you'd understand there's nothing in there that could cause "compatibility issues". It either works or it doesn't.

But anyway, arguing with fanboys is a waste of time. I suggest anyone who wants to upgrade their CPU to do some real in-depth research into the intel problems and how good AMD ryzen 7 and 9 are for audio, and weed out the fanboyism.

I think the misinformation is coming 101% from your side.

"Trust me bro" ? Data-driven?? Who? the clueless guy's video you posted? The AMD shills? Who?
The guy who downclocked his CPU to 4.2Ghz?

Fanboyism? I am not a fan boy at all and while we are at it and you wanna do this with playground rules I will answer back in the same way, so as to set the tone of this post.

This is the difference between buying a Mac (hassle free operation), and building and maintaining a PC by yourself (which includes having the analytical skills to weed out "I heard it on youtube"-kids").

I personally explained the mess that happened with the Intel CPUs. I did not say it did not happen, and I explained how I and many other sane people avoided it from the start. Because it was crystal clear what you need to do once you looked at the BIOS settings a year ago.

You came here with one funny article from a dude who kept downclocking his CPU to 4.2Ghz from at least 5.7Ghz and had BSODs from week 1 and a video from a guy who is absolutely clueless about how BIOS works. I did not bring you any clueless guy's shill video or article but I offered you my knowledge and personal experience, as well as the road to this intel mess. Your knowledge seems to end on youtube videos. Knowledge about how to setup PCs properly as with everything comes with experience, many mistakes (some costly ones), hours and hours of testing, and the right paths of unbiased information.

DATA DRIVEN!!! If we are to blame anyone about the Intel mess without going into conspiracy theories then it should be the motherboard vendors first, and intel second for not stopping that madness (but I guess they liked the benchmark results). What more in-depth than this do you need?

I also gave you reasons why an AMD is not better than an Intel for average DAW usage (by average I mean DAW usage both during writing music but also mixing).

https://help.ilok.com/faq_ilm.html#amd_zen_5
"The problem is due to a bug in the CPU itself, which impacts the way certain protection features in iLok-enabled software work. We have reported the issue to AMD, who have acknowledged the problem"

Oh it is not the CPU eh, it is the software right? And with AMDs it is not only the ilok but many many many other devices (wanna start about midi controllers, interfaces, pcie cards?). You have no idea how many people with AMD cpu laptops had issues randomly with their interface or midi contorllers live on stage.

I have never in my life blocked someone in a forum, let alone a music one, but I will do this right now.

PS. Funny how you forgot to mention that Ryzen 7 could burn down your house
https://www.windowscentral.com/hardware ... s-gigabyte

Similar case to motherboard vendors causing issues to Intel CPUs. AMD had to intervene and fix the issue. So what is worse? Noobs getting degradation on the CPUs or your house catching fire? You might need to think hard for this one just so you will not be called a fanboy.

[Lerian]

"I'm not a fanboy"



LE: AMD haven't acknowledged what ilok is implying. If they were, the 9900x would not have the same issues with ilok. ilok is doing some really shady things lowering performance, and they expect AMD to just change their architecture for ilok to have zero cross-CCD latency, because their software is slow and buggy and a useless waste of resources. Which AMD won't do, because ilok is nobody. ilok is a dying business, with an abusive business model that punishes customers while others use ilok-free versions of the same software running 2x faster with less ram and cpu usage.

[Sindikhate]

"I'm not a fanboy"

This is exactly what I thought you would be like!!


DATA - DRIVEN!!! More than anything!
She is the kind of person that would use such phrase too after using two bad links!

[Teksonik]

Looking into the mac studio and pc, building
a new pc would be pretty close to $2k as well, especially considering the min gpu
card (imo) would be $800 by itself.

The question is does a DAW need a high end GPU card? I would say no. Something mid-range would work just fine.

If I were to purchase a Mac Mini then I'd need a USB hub, possibly a new keyboard and mouse, external storage, etc which all add to the overall cost.

Bottom line is if you look at the benchmarks the i9 destroys the M4 in terms of overall CPU score.

Even if the Mac and PC were exactly the same price with exactly the same specs the fact I'd have to worry about my plugins getting broken every time Apple changes a line of code in their OS that would make the decision on which to buy crystal clear to me. Add in the fact that a Mac Mini can't be upgraded by the end user and that's another strike.

Like I said I'm not opposed to buying a Mac but it would have to blow the PC away in both price and performance and I'm not seeing that as being the case at this point.

[Teksonik]

I'm planing on getting a new studio system Q1 of next year. But I'm failing to see any reason to buy even the M4 Pro 14 Core. I'm not totally married to the Windows environment but moving to Mac would have to make a lot of sense financially and performance wise.

The Intel 1400 and also 1300 series have had such serious issues, to the extent that Intel has had to extend the warranty to 5 years to try and allay people's fears.
Plus they are power hogs under full load and especially the one you linked to.
It needs to use the 320W Extreme Power Delivery profile to deliver the advertised performance:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/inte ... ks/22.html

In some cases these chips are experiencing irreversible damage using stock settings.
Not sure if this is down to Intel, the board manufactures or both.
The AMD Ryzen 9 9950X is usually the much better option and at a much lower wattage.
As for the M4 Pro offering lower multi-core performance, that is usually irrelevant for DAW usage.
How often do you see your DAW pegging all cores at anywhere near a 100% load?
It's not really an issue outside of fringe cases.

I have not ruled out AMD chips. As for power draw, who cares. As for multi core, no I don't see "all cores at anywhere near a 100% load" but I do see an efficient spreading of load over all cores which is the whole point.

To be honest my ageing i7 8700K non-overclocked handles everything I throw at it right now. Even my most complex projects rarely reach 70% of buffer load. I can program patches on certain synths that will choke it out but for normal use it will handle every plugin in multiple instances with no problem.

So I don't really need that much of a performance bump out of a new system. It's just my current studio system is on a 6 year old install of Windows 10 and will need to be replaced or refreshed at some point. The plan is to get a new system then move my old studio system in here to replace the one I'm on now for general internet duties etc. That will allow me to keep all my old projects intact while eliminating a lot of bloat from the new system (iLok, possibly Native Access, hundreds of plugins I've collected but rarely if ever use, etc).

I understand that Mac users are fiercely loyal and that's fine. Loyalty is a good thing as long as it doesn't blind you to reality.

As my old studio system grinds away for almost an hour today on yet another Windows 10 "Second Tuesday" update my love for the operating system is not high.

[PAK]

Bottom line is if you look at the benchmarks the i9 destroys the M4 in terms of overall CPU score.

The M4 often has stronger single core performance, which is what matters for audio. It’s then a question of how many performance cores an M4 has. The current M4’s are from laptops and (very!) small form factor PC’s. A 14900k, in the form factor of the new Mac Mini, would fry itself!

I assure you the M4 Ultra will outperform every Intel 14900 series chip, both in fairly useless (for audio) benchmarks, like Passmark, and actual real-world audio performance, when it’s launched in the spring-summer of 2025.

If someone's looking at the present offerings, it's more about whether they don't need all that performance, and whether they want a larger, power hungry, and more noisy, PC for its advantages? Lately, that mostly comes down to Nvidia cards - whether for 3D, gaming, or “AI”. And, of course, cost.

Even if the Mac and PC were exactly the same price with exactly the same specs the fact I'd have to worry about my plugins getting broken every time Apple changes a line of code in their OS

This is not correct. Many years of VST use without issues on Intel, and I've been through 3 OS changes already, on Apple Silicon, with no issues. The only one I can recall is the M2 series had an issue with the iLok drivers, which iLok corrected.

You're, typically, not going to compete on price, although you can get closer with non-Apple sources which discount, and going with a base config which upgrades very little (as Apple are infamous for over-charging on Memory and particularly storage). So users have to figure out whether those things are worth it for a machine which is nearly silent for many uses..

[PieBerger]

Exciting! After 10 years on Windows, I'm ready to go back to Apple again for my desktop machine, especially after such a positive experience with my M1 Air. I don't need a super computer to produce on, I discovered this on the Air which only has the base M1 CPU and 16GB RAM and is plenty powerful enough for my needs. The Apple Tax for extra disk space sucks, but can be more easily circumvented on desktops by using an external SSD. I'm using a fast thumbdrive on the Air to increase storage capacity without having to lug around an external drive.

[Teksonik]

Bottom line is if you look at the benchmarks the i9 destroys the M4 in terms of overall CPU score.

The M4 often has stronger single core performance, which is what matters for audio.

If you look at the benchmarks I posted above the i9 has a single core score of 4870 while the M4 Pro 14 core has a score of 4602 so the i9 is "stronger". Overall CPU mark score is i9: 62,429, M4 Pro: 38,411

I don't use laptops for music production so that discussion is irrelevant to me.

I assure you the M4 Ultra will outperform every Intel 14900 series chip, both in fairly useless (for audio) benchmarks, like Passmark, and actual real-world audio performance, when it’s launched in the spring-summer of 2025.

I assure you that I can find no real world reliable information that your assertion is true. All I see are Mac fans fawning over yet another number being added after the M and ignoring any information that does not support their narrative.

Lately, that mostly comes down to Nvidia cards - whether for 3D, gaming, or “AI”. And, of course, cost.

Again I'm building a DAW not an AI or gaming machine so I can save a lot on the GPU card. My Nvidia 1050 Ti does everything I want or need right now and that card is well old.

This is not correct. Many years of VST use without issues on Intel, and I've been through 3 OS changes already, on Apple Silicon, with no issues.

Again you're looking at life through Apple colored glasses. I have been on beta teams where all work on new plugins had to stop in order to bring older plugins up to the latest Mac OS specs. I've lost count of how many times I've been notified that plugins I own have been "updated" simply to find that the "updates" were only to make them work on the latest Mac OS version. I've read countless threads where Mac users were begging developers to update their plugins after a Mac OS update. Many times I have received e-mails from developers both large and small warning not to update to the latest Mac OS until they've had a chance to update their plugins and so on. All I can go on is the information at my disposal and that information leads me to believe that if I were to switch to Mac these issues could be expected to continue.

So users have to figure out whether those things are worth it for a machine which is nearly silent for many uses..

My current PC is so quiet I can't hear it because it's liquid cooled and I have it somewhat isolated so not an issue here.

Anyway I know it's pointless to engage zealots in discussion because of their near religious fervor so I'll just leave you to enjoy your Mac and if the data I gather ever makes me think that buying one is right for me then I might join you. So I'll wish you a good day.....

[Lerian]

I don't need a super computer to produce on,

Actually any computer from the last 5 years is a supercomputer. Even the phones/tablets. I remember using a core2duo laptop cpu with 4gb ram and being super happy that it could handle enough tracks to make a song, without bouncing to audio. Today, a macbook air is a monster. iPad is an excellent portable monster. Even more so is intel 12900k or AMD 7900x/7950x/9900x/9950x. They all have enough power to handle 2-3 daws playing at the same time, with asio routing among them, and under 10ms RTL. I do it quite often with Reaper + VCV Rack, without any sweat. Indeed, reaper have the best core balancing among all daws (Cubase being second).

[pekbro]

Looking into the mac studio and pc, building
a new pc would be pretty close to $2k as well, especially considering the min gpu
card (imo) would be $800 by itself.

The question is does a DAW need a high end GPU card? I would say no. Something mid-range would work just fine.

If I were to purchase a Mac Mini then I'd need a USB hub, possibly a new keyboard and mouse, external storage, etc which all add to the overall cost.

Bottom line is if you look at the benchmarks the i9 destroys the M4 in terms of overall CPU score.

Even if the Mac and PC were exactly the same price with exactly the same specs the fact I'd have to worry about my plugins getting broken every time Apple changes a line of code in their OS that would make the decision on which to buy crystal clear to me. Add in the fact that a Mac Mini can't be upgraded by the end user and that's another strike.

Like I said I'm not opposed to buying a Mac but it would have to blow the PC away in both price and performance and I'm not seeing that as being the case at this point.

Mine does, since i like games and am and super annoyed i cant play the latest tech
games. Thats the only thing making me
hesitate on the mac, tho surprisingly the
mac studio should do pretty well with the
games that are available for it, and there
is support amongst the latest games devs
for it, but not all of course.

I also like to do computer graphics / animation on occasion and whatnot,
so good graphics is important for me.

[revvy]

Mac is never gonna blow away PC for cost and performance nor excel in terms of gaming. If that’s what you’re after then stick to PC.

[apoclypse]

Bottom line is if you look at the benchmarks the i9 destroys the M4 in terms of overall CPU score.

The M4 often has stronger single core performance, which is what matters for audio.

If you look at the benchmarks I posted above the i9 has a single core score of 4870 while the M4 Pro 14 core has a score of 4602 so the i9 is "stronger". Overall CPU mark score is i9: 62,429, M4 Pro: 38,411

I don't use laptops for music production so that discussion is irrelevant to me.

I assure you the M4 Ultra will outperform every Intel 14900 series chip, both in fairly useless (for audio) benchmarks, like Passmark, and actual real-world audio performance, when it’s launched in the spring-summer of 2025.

I assure you that I can find no real world reliable information that your assertion is true. All I see are Mac fans fawning over yet another number being added after the M and ignoring any information that does not support their narrative.

Lately, that mostly comes down to Nvidia cards - whether for 3D, gaming, or “AI”. And, of course, cost.

Again I'm building a DAW not an AI or gaming machine so I can save a lot on the GPU card. My Nvidia 1050 Ti does everything I want or need right now and that card is well old.

This is not correct. Many years of VST use without issues on Intel, and I've been through 3 OS changes already, on Apple Silicon, with no issues.

Again you're looking at life through Apple colored glasses. I have been on beta teams where all work on new plugins had to stop in order to bring older plugins up to the latest Mac OS specs. I've lost count of how many times I've been notified that plugins I own have been "updated" simply to find that the "updates" were only to make them work on the latest Mac OS version. I've read countless threads where Mac users were begging developers to update their plugins after a Mac OS update. Many times I have received e-mails from developers both large and small warning not to update to the latest Mac OS until they've had a chance to update their plugins and so on. All I can go on is the information at my disposal and that information leads me to believe that if I were to switch to Mac these issues could be expected to continue.

So users have to figure out whether those things are worth it for a machine which is nearly silent for many uses..

My current PC is so quiet I can't hear it because it's liquid cooled and I have it somewhat isolated so not an issue here.

Anyway I know it's pointless to engage zealots in discussion because of their near religious fervor so I'll just leave you to enjoy your Mac and if the data I gather ever makes me think that buying one is right for me then I might join you. So I'll wish you a good day.....

What benchmarks? I’m not seeing any in your post above

All the benchmarks I’ve seen have the M4 Pro handily beating the 14900K in single core while using significantly less power to do so. That’s not even getting into the Max being the fastest chip in the market right now for single core. So their assertion that the Ultra will probably kill the 14900K may not be wrong assuming it scales linearly (doesn’t always happen).

The chip is still fairly new so more benchmarks are incoming but check the results in this video

[woodsdenis]

Mac is never gonna blow away PC for cost and performance nor excel in terms of gaming. If that’s what you’re after then stick to PC.

I think the point is this is a music software forum, nobody really cares about games etc. If you do then bring it up on a different forum. We all know by now that Macs are more expensive as they charge OTT for RAM etc, so let's keep this real and civil and not the decades old us v them debate, its as boring as hell.
It certainly looks like according to these tests that the M4 smokes all previous other M chips in terms of performance for most DAWs. I think the discussion should be why are the ones at the bottom of the list so bad.