I'm working on a bucket brigade delay - what do you think so far?

[Amberience]

Hey Drew, nice to see you working on plugins! BBD's are my favorite delay type. First thing I do with any new BBD plugin is listen to the delays get crunchy, and play with the runaway feedback.

Yep me too actually!! I don't see the point (well... within reason) of using a BBD delay if you're not going to get some oscillations and crunch!

Second thing I do is try to see if it does chorus/flange. I'm always disappointed when they can't. If you're going full-on circuit-bent BBD delay, I'd suggest not forgetting about chorus/flange/vibrato and building some features to take those to the next level.

This will do those for sure.

2. Addition of an LFO with different shapes (Triangle, Sine, Square). I'm assuming it's usually the clock speed being modulated and not the delay time. But maybe options in a plugin for different Modulation targets.

Yep, will have multiple LFO shapes you can choose. Modulation is applied to the clock speed, yes.

3. The ability to adjust the gain going into the BBD. Set cleaner for chorus/flange, hit harder for delays for example.

Yep, got that already!

4. Bypassable compander and/or controls over the companding.

Yep! Got that already!

5. Multiple delay lines with different phases and the ability to pan.

There's one delay line per engine right now, with one write head and one read head. It is true stereo though, so once I get to adding a spread control, that will give some real width. Each side will have its own note division selector too, and tap tempo within the plugin.

6. Crossfeed routing capabilities (5 and 6 should allow for the dimension thing).

This should be possible. But I need to think about how to present it. Because it isn't exactly "analog".

7. Presets for DM-2, various Memory Man versions (including modern ones), CE-2, BF-2, DOD FX65, VB-2, Boss Dimension, Small Clone, Mistress, etc..

Yep! Got a lot of them already.

Is that overkill? Oh yeah, absolutely. Would it be great? Amazing.

That's kind of the plan. I want to create the ultimate BBD machine. On the surface level, users should just choose a pedal and go. But go into deep editing and you can tweak absolutely everything.

Right.... back to devving this thing!!

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

That sounds killer Drew. Sign me up!

I don't really do beta testing these days, but if you need some testers, feel free hit me up when you're ready. I'll make an exception for you and this. Don't even need to get it as a freebie.

[elxsound]

Fantastic! I look forward to being able to finally say there is a really good BBD emulation in software that is sufficiently gnarly but controllable

There have been some in recent years that sound reasonably like "clean-ish" dark BBD-based delay pedals, but few of them can sound like you're trying to push the BBD too far. (Sinevibes Integer does explore underclocking based on number of stages, but isn't really an emulation per se.)

And then all that remains is a killer PT2399 emulation...

I have built up a bunch of chip profiles like these:

* 0 == CT::MN3005 — Panasonic 4096-stage, 15 V; long classic analog delay, warm repeats, good headroom.
* 1 == CT::MN3205 — Panasonic 4096-stage, 5 V; classic 9 V delay voice, darker/grittier at long times.
* 2 == CT::MN3007 — Panasonic 1024-stage, 15 V; chorus/flanger staple, clean low-noise short line.
* 3 == CT::MN3207 — Panasonic 1024-stage, 5 V; ubiquitous 9 V chorus/flanger BBD, more sag feel.
* 4 == CT::SAD1024 — Reticon dual-512, ~15 V; flanger/early MM bite, short by itself (stack for more).
* 5 == CT::R5106 — Toshiba ~1024-stage, ~12 V; modulation/synth-leaning short-to-medium line.
* 6 == CT::MN3004 — Panasonic 512-stage, 15 V; bright short delay/ADT/chorus duties.
* 7 == CT::MN3008 — Panasonic 2048-stage, 15 V; DMM-style building block for longer delays.
* 8 == CT::MN3010 — Panasonic dual-512, 15 V; flexible dual short lines for stereo/multi-path tricks.
* 9 == CT::MN3011 — Panasonic 3328-stage tapped, 15 V; multi-tap ambience/widening (STD-1 vibe).
* 10 == CT::MN3204 — Panasonic 512-stage, 5 V; short modulation/ADT at 9 V.
* 11 == CT::MN3206 — Panasonic 2048-stage, 5 V; mid-length 9 V delays/modulation, compact builds.
* 12 == CT::SAD4096 — Reticon 4096-stage, ~15 V; long Reticon flavor, a touch grittier than Panasonic.
* 13 == CT::SAD512 — Reticon 512-stage, ~15 V; crisp short-line for modulation/ADT.
* 14 == CT::TDA1022 — Philips 512-stage, 10–18 V; vintage European chorus/short-delay favorite.
* 15 == CT::V3207 — Coolaudio MN3207 clone, 1024-stage, 5 V; modern chorus/flanger staple.
* 16 == CT::V3205 — Coolaudio MN3205 clone, 4096-stage, 5 V; modern dark 9 V delays (e.g., Carbon Copy).
* 17 == CT::BL3207 — Belling MN3207 clone, 1024-stage, 5 V; budget/DIY chorus/flanger option.
* 18 == CT::XVIVE3005 — Xvive MN3005 reissue, 4096-stage, 15 V; modern supply for classic long-delay tone.

You can customize them fully though. So you can pretty much invent your own chip. The reason for the LP/HP/Peak1/Peak2 filters in the feedback path is that it is actually really awesome being able to shape the circulatory nature of the delay. Personally I like to cut around 100hz and boost around 1kHz by 1dB, so that the oscillations turn quite squeally and interesting. Kind of like a Boss DM2 at short delay times, but you can get that effect at long delay times too if you want.

I clicked on the thread thinking I’d be bored by another delay announcement. The demo sounds amazing.

Love the UI, too.

[elxsound]

Fantastic! I look forward to being able to finally say there is a really good BBD emulation in software that is sufficiently gnarly but controllable

There have been some in recent years that sound reasonably like "clean-ish" dark BBD-based delay pedals, but few of them can sound like you're trying to push the BBD too far. (Sinevibes Integer does explore underclocking based on number of stages, but isn't really an emulation per se.)

And then all that remains is a killer PT2399 emulation...

Gnarly but controllable. I was trying to get the words out and it was far too long of an explanation.

I somehow need to remember that. That’s what I liked about Zen Delay (hardware). It’s very controllable. Their plugin doesn’t have the same feel. Then plenty of non emulation delays that are gnarly, but not exactly controllable.

I’m actually excited about this and I think I’ve definitely joined the jaded crowd, so I’m gonna roll with the excitement for a change.

[justin3am]

Sounds nice!

That's sounding generally pretty decent!

My ideal software BBD emulation would have...

What he said!

[Uncle E]

It would probably be a good idea to add a Deluxe Memory Man mode. It's pretty easy to do because the sound is filtered by its preamp circuit, so you can simply add the sound of that to the front.

[metalifuxx]

I see something about voltages in the chips profiles. Power supply voltage can affect the smoothness/crunchy ring mod artifacts. I have a Boss DM-3, and for years I had been improperly powering it with just "standard" 9 volts. The repeats would have this gnarly character with a ring mod bit crushed effect...I just thought this was normal behavior for an early BBD delay of this type. But then I read that it should probably be powered by the old Boss ACA style (12v) power supply, or just simply, give it 12 volts. When i finally got a proper isolated power supply (Voodoo Labs Pedal Power Plus 2) I had the ability to change one the outputs to 12 volts...and wow, what a difference in smoother cleaner feedback and slightly longer apparent delay times. Still the 9v powering it gave it this very unique gritty more trebly character with the bit crushed/ring mod-ish type artifacts on the overall tone, more prominently noticeable outside a mix or just solo/isolated, but sort of not noticeable as much when jamming live (used on guitar often with drive/fuzz and other effects), but seemed to make the delay cut and standout more in a mix. I also have a DOD Rubberneck analog delay (supposed to be a Deluxe Memory Man with all the controls), which is a totally different analog delay tone/sound, smoother yet way darker, which for being use to the Boss DM-3 with 9 volt powered operation for years, it took me some time to get used to the smoother less bitey sound of the DOD Rubberneck, almost really didn't like the Rubberneck at first because of the drastic tone difference, thinking all analog delays had roughly the same tone characteristics.

On that note, the Rubberneck has a feedback effects loop insert to use whatever effects pedals in the feedback path. It's a cool feature but sort of cumbersome to setup with physical pedals and takes up a lot of space on the board or floor. Are you considering an option to either have built in effect types for feedback loop inserts, or perhaps ability to add vst effects? It's not an important feature and I have never really used the feedback effects loop in a live jamming situation.

[zerocrossing]

What kind of features do people typically want from a plugin aimed at modelling analog delays (racks and stompboxes) ??

It wasn't long after I got my Ibanez AD9 that I duct taped it to my guitar so I could tweak the controls during a performance, so my request would be to make sure all of it is controllable via MIDI, including a Learn mode, DAW automation, and maybe for fun a vector pad where you could assign a parameter and parameter range to 4 quadrants of a square, and then use MIDI or automation to control the x and y position.

[Amberience]

I see something about voltages in the chips profiles. Power supply voltage can affect the smoothness/crunchy ring mod artifacts. I have a Boss DM-3, and for years I had been improperly powering it with just "standard" 9 volts. The repeats would have this gnarly character with a ring mod bit crushed effect...I just thought this was normal behavior for an early BBD delay of this type. But then I read that it should probably be powered by the old Boss ACA style (12v) power supply, or just simply, give it 12 volts. When i finally got a proper isolated power supply (Voodoo Labs Pedal Power Plus 2) I had the ability to change one the outputs to 12 volts...and wow, what a difference in smoother cleaner feedback and slightly longer apparent delay times. Still the 9v powering it gave it this very unique gritty more trebly character with the bit crushed/ring mod-ish type artifacts on the overall tone, more prominently noticeable outside a mix or just solo/isolated, but sort of not noticeable as much when jamming live (used on guitar often with drive/fuzz and other effects), but seemed to make the delay cut and standout more in a mix. I also have a DOD Rubberneck analog delay (supposed to be a Deluxe Memory Man with all the controls), which is a totally different analog delay tone/sound, smoother yet way darker, which for being use to the Boss DM-3 with 9 volt powered operation for years, it took me some time to get used to the smoother less bitey sound of the DOD Rubberneck, almost really didn't like the Rubberneck at first because of the drastic tone difference, thinking all analog delays had roughly the same tone characteristics.

That's totally my experience too!

On that note, the Rubberneck has a feedback effects loop insert to use whatever effects pedals in the feedback path. It's a cool feature but sort of cumbersome to setup with physical pedals and takes up a lot of space on the board or floor. Are you considering an option to either have built in effect types for feedback loop inserts, or perhaps ability to add vst effects? It's not an important feature and I have never really used the feedback effects loop in a live jamming situation.

Yknow, I genuinely hadn't considered this, even though I have a Meris LVX which does a similar thing with its effects blocks. I was also trying to keep the scope quite pure and fixated on BBD's.

Hmmmm. It would be better if we could settle on a chain of effects that would sit in there. They could be re-orderable for sure. But VST support is a huge ask at this stage, and I'm reluctant to add it due to the complexity. Let's come up with a list of insert effects you'd want instead. I'll consider adding it to the spec.

What kind of features do people typically want from a plugin aimed at modelling analog delays (racks and stompboxes) ??

It wasn't long after I got my Ibanez AD9 that I duct taped it to my guitar so I could tweak the controls during a performance, so my request would be to make sure all of it is controllable via MIDI, including a Learn mode, DAW automation, and maybe for fun a vector pad where you could assign a parameter and parameter range to 4 quadrants of a square, and then use MIDI or automation to control the x and y position.

Those AD9's are killlllller. It definitely will have automation and a leanr mode. An X/Y square could be cool. I'll consider it for sure. Being able to "play the delay" is a huge part of my ambition with this.

[Uncle E]

X/Y would be key. We’re usually turning 2 knobs at a time, an X/Y is the only way to do it with a mouse.

[justin3am]

Yknow, I genuinely hadn't considered this, even though I have a Meris LVX which does a similar thing with its effects blocks. I was also trying to keep the scope quite pure and fixated on BBD's.

Hmmmm. It would be better if we could settle on a chain of effects that would sit in there. They could be re-orderable for sure. But VST support is a huge ask at this stage, and I'm reluctant to add it due to the complexity. Let's come up with a list of insert effects you'd want instead. I'll consider adding it to the spec.

I recently did a video where I demonstrate using some different effects in the feedback loop with my Deluxe Memory Man TT:
Starts around the 14:30 mark.

A particularly cool effect is using a ringmod in the feedback loop and then mixing some of the clean signal (or the final output for that matter) with an oscillator as the modulator. This can get you anything from oscillator control of the feedback level to kinda cascading risset tones of different kinds.

[Uncle E]

Chorus, flange, phase, ring mod, slow gear, and pitch shift are all pretty standard. One at a time ought to be sufficient, so just put in a single effect section with switchable effects.

[.jon]

This sounds very nice!

[dubguy99]

Looks awesome!!!

Would multiple delay lines be too computationally expensive or is it more of a design decision?

Maybe you could tuck it away in an advanced panel or something -- but I think having more than 1 line would be really cool for Dim-D / tri chorus style stuff, which has never really been done properly (in the sense of having a good BBD model) in a plugin before.

Also, I think the peak filters in the delay line are a great idea. My rack BBDs and pedals all have wildly different frequency responses with a different emphasis in the midrange, it's really not just a lowpass filter like many plugin emulations tend to go for.

[Amberience]

Looks awesome!!!

Would multiple delay lines be too computationally expensive or is it more of a design decision?

Maybe you could tuck it away in an advanced panel or something -- but I think having more than 1 line would be really cool for Dim-D / tri chorus style stuff, which has never really been done properly (in the sense of having a good BBD model) in a plugin before.

Also, I think the peak filters in the delay line are a great idea. My rack BBDs and pedals all have wildly different frequency responses with a different emphasis in the midrange, it's really not just a lowpass filter like many plugin emulations tend to go for.

I'm not against multiple delay lines to be clear, but yes this was a decision I made originally, because the intent was to model stompboxes, which tend to be single delay lines. Let me give it some thought. I genuinely didn't expect people would want to use this as a modulation plugin. Doesn't seem like a bad idea.