Live versus electronic drums.

[TVD]

So I have been wondering...Why do people use sampled drum hits and midi as opposed to live drum loops/tracks?

I'm not being a smart-ass (at least not intentionally) I really want to know perceived advantages/ disadvantages.

Do people use samples and samplers because they are easier to use than live drums? Is it simply because people want drums but don't play them? Because they live in an apartment and can't record real drums?

Or is it a variety thing: twenty snare sounds in one track, etc.,etc.?

Or do people prefer that totally controlled electronic sound?

Just interested in knowing people's opinions.

CORRECT ANSWER: All of the above!

Plus, with live drums, there is so much work in putting all the drum mics in the right locations to get the right sound.

But with drum samples (hits not loops), my workload is cut down big time. Just load the samples in my favorite sampling drum machine (FLS), program the exact arrangements of all the drum & purcussions parts (MIDI or step-sequencing), and I'm done (I now have fresh new beats).

Bring on the other instruments to found.....

[TVD]

Setting up drum-kits totally sucks and provides no real advantage beyond the interest of watching a drummer on stage. i.e. It is way too much effort for way too little return. SiK plays an OctaPad on stage but it triggers hits from ORION. I programme everything for recording because it's a one-shot process.

Exactly!

[TVD]

One simple reason (and most likely true for most of us here):
No way to practise and record the f**kers at our home studios.
Think about it, almost anything else (apart from an elephant trumpet section perhaps) can be recorded easily on a rather low budget. With decent results that is.
To get anything close to that quality out of a real drumset you'd need 5 mics at least, a recording booth and enough space for the thing.

Exactly! That's too much workload for some of us.

[TVD]

Setting up drum-kits totally sucks and provides no real advantage beyond the interest of watching a drummer on stage. i.e. It is way too much effort for way too little return.

So I am obsolete, then?

Yes, you are obsolete (to an extent). And the hip-hop & electronic cultures are close to killing the live drummer's career (unless Prince can change that).

[atomic_(no)afro]

After this last week of recording a band in a studio, I’m really, really, starting to hate the sound of unprocessed acoustic drums. I feel as though they lack the punch and energy of drum synths and sampled (overcompressed and processed) drum hits.

I think I've heard one too many of these "Jam Band" drummers who think they are the shit because they can do sloppy fills every couple of bars, and when you ask the silly sods to play to a metronome or click track, they can’t stay on beat to save their life. Sorry, but I like something that is complex, but has a purposeful structure, and way too many drummers don't even understand the basic concept of rhythm despite their chosen profession. Hats off to those drummers who do their jobs right, but those are thin on the ground these days. Most drummers nowadays get off on the notion that "they are real", and fail to live up to the expectations set by drummachines, as if they didn't have to compete with them. The way to beat the machines is to either A) work with them (my preference, as I love to hear 808s with real snares thrown in the mix), or B) beat them at their own game by being more complex, more skillful, but keeping to a consistent tempo. Who here is sick to death of drummers telling us that our music is great, but would be better if it had "real drumming"? Grow up guys.

ATA

[herodotus]

After this last week of recording a band in a studio, I’m really, really, starting to hate the sound of unprocessed acoustic drums. I feel as though they lack the punch and energy of drum synths and sampled (overcompressed and processed) drum hits.

I think I've heard one too many of these "Jam Band" drummers who think they are the shit because they can do sloppy fills every couple of bars, and when you ask the silly sods to play to a metronome or click track, they can’t stay on beat to save their life. Sorry, but I like something that is complex, but has a purposeful structure, and way too many drummers don't even understand the basic concept of rhythm despite their chosen profession. Hats off to those drummers who do their jobs right, but those are thin on the ground these days. Most drummers nowadays get off on the notion that "they are real", and fail to live up to the expectations set by drummachines, as if they didn't have to compete with them. The way to beat the machines is to either A) work with them (my preference, as I love to hear 808s with real snares thrown in the mix), or B) beat them at their own game by being more complex, more skillful, but keeping to a consistent tempo. Who here is sick to death of drummers telling us that our music is great, but would be better if it had "real drumming"? Grow up guys.

ATA

You know, I am trying to be open minded and sympathetic, but your post sounds kind of bigotted to me.

There are a ton of crappy drummers, to be sure. But there a ton of crappy everythings. To my ear, the worst ratio of talented:talentless is to be found among singers. But does this mean that in ten years that we will talking about how singers are "Failing to live up to the expectations set by vocal modelling synths"? The idea is comical.

If you really prefer the sound of electronic drums to real ones that is a matter of taste. If you think that the Delay Lama sounds better than Mike Patton that, too, is a matter of taste. But in my opinion (given that we are sharing our opinions here) The first statement is as strange as the second is.

As to tempo, give a good listen to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, King Crimson (circa 73) Cream, Blue Cheer or whatever Classics you like. Better yet, listen to some jazz. Take some loops from random parts of a single song, and analyze the tempo. I will bet you any money that there will be differences from loop to loop. They are the result of a probably obsolete thing called MUSICAL EXPRESSION!!!

And so far as I know, no one has yet made a plugin that can create it.

[Stupid American Pig]

Setting up drum-kits totally sucks and provides no real advantage beyond the interest of watching a drummer on stage. i.e. It is way too much effort for way too little return.

So I am obsolete, then?

Yes, you are obsolete (to an extent). And the hip-hop & electronic cultures are close to killing the live drummer's career (unless Prince can change that).

I think I see a shift back towards live instrumentation though. Electronic and Hip hop music have had a good run, but I seem more and more bands starting to at least incorporate live instrumentation into their works. Drums will alwyas have the disadvantag of being loud and bulky though , and with drum modules like BFD, they wont be missed as badly. I do, however, think that we will be seeing more instrument playing in the next few years...

[BONES]

But I am really on the fence here. I don't want to be a neo-primitive or anything, but I have never heard electronic drums that sounded real. Cool, certainly. But REAL?

If I wanted real drums I'd use 'em but I have absolutely no desire for that. Anyway, don't most drummers aspire to perfect, machine-like timing? We just save 'em all that mind-numbing practice. Its just not something I have any appreiation for at all.

[foosnark]

Anyway, don't most drummers aspire to perfect, machine-like timing?

As beginners maybe.

[pooshka]

Think photography/paintings for example - if you want photorealism nowadays you should take up on photography, if you look at expressionist painting and complain that it does not present as clear/photorealistic image as photography, then well, I'd say that's just lack of appreciation for art. :p

this whole notion that 'complex beat playing drummer is better' is also complete bollocks because I've seen some drummers who can play really complex stuff all in time and technically perfect like drum machines, but they are still SHIT musically. Good drummer would play around with a song and may decide to just play kickdrums on every beat for the entire song, and if it makes sense musically than he'd be 1000 times better drummer than someone who plays mega-funk beat in perfect time to a song that really just need kick on every beat! IMO, the main criteria for a good drummer is someone who knows what beat goes with a song and deliver it.

And furthermore, there is 'sound' to think about - good drummer would get good sound out of drums, in much the same way that a good trumpet player would get better trumpet sound of a same trumpet compare to shit trumpet player. I've heard some drummers who play their beats all in time, but they just sound SHIT because drumming is not just about hitting the right thing at the right time - it's about hitting the drumheads/cymbals in a way that create the best SOUND.

I don't consider myself as great great drummer or whatever, but I am happy that I'm not a drum machine (erm... yeah, I'm happy that I'm not a machine basically. :p)

just to give you example, check out my band's website

www.theenergies.com

sorry about audio quality because you can only hear the songs in real audio format (but it should still sound reasonable), but you'll see exactly what I've been talking about.

a) I play the simplest beats but personally I'm of the opinion that I'm playing the best possible beats to the song my band play (my band mates seem to agree).

b) Our drum sound is good - it was ALL accoustic and all real playing, no samples used at all. I think it would be VERY difficult to get these drum sounds/feel with using drum machine.

c) the song 'Beyond the end' was recorded with/without click-track; with click track because I, the drummer, suggested that we try recording it with it, and without clicktrack because the producer suggested it would give a better/more fluid feel to music. So yeah, it's not always like drummers want to play 'sloppy' and 'out of time' and producers tear their hair out because they believe everything should go down with clicktrack - that's just a cliche really.

[grotman]

Hi there,
in reply to a lot of the post's on this thread regarding the preferred use of a drum machine/loops. Thats fine but be carefull who you may offend by saying that this is a better option than a real drummer on a analog kit , there are a lot of these drummers on KVR that prefer analog. If you like a drummachine over a blood and bones drummer fine better than fine excellent but saying that a drummer cannot aspire to what one of these machines does and that drummers are being killed off by the TREND to use them over the real thing is pure folly.

Atomic fro wrote....
After this last week of recording a band in a studio, I’m really, really, starting to hate the sound of unprocessed acoustic drums. I feel as though they lack the punch and energy of drum synths and sampled (overcompressed and processed) drum hits.
"What about Korn<Slipknot>Faith No More (The mighty Mike bordin)"

I think I've heard one too many of these "Jam Band" drummers who think they are the shit because they can do sloppy fills every couple of bars, and when you ask the silly sods to play to a metronome or click track, they can’t stay on beat to save their life. Sorry, but I like something that is complex, but has a purposeful structure, and way too many drummers don't even understand the basic concept of rhythm despite their chosen profession. Hats off to those drummers who do their jobs right, but those are thin on the ground these days. Most drummers nowadays get off on the notion that "they are real", and fail to live up to the expectations set by drummachines, as if they didn't have to compete with them. The way to beat the machines is to either A) work with them (my preference, as I love to hear 808s with real snares thrown in the mix), or B) beat them at their own game by being more complex, more skillful, but keeping to a consistent tempo. Who here is sick to death of drummers telling us that our music is great, but would be better if it had "real drumming"? Grow up guys.

bahahahahahahahahahahahaha....
whatever man, you grow up, sounds like you need to.

In answer to the threads initial post.
I believe real drums do sound better if you take the time to do it properly and that usually is a painstaking process, laborius and sometimes not so rewarding. However if you get it right , it sounds fuckin unbelievable. For no other reason than convienience I opted to use a Roland drum trigger(td6) triggering selected samples that i pick one by one with my drummer as he is playing the kit , until we get it sounding as close to a phat sound as possible. Not a pretty process in itself however once it is right it sounds excellent. Just play close attention to pitchings of the drums (especially snare ,Bdrum, and your cymbals check that the tone and decay sound natural, if thats your thing, disregard otherwise).
And the other main advantage i find with this is living in a small apatment we can wear headphones while we rehearse, as i also use a line 6 to DI the guitar.
Hope that helps you.

regards

[Markleford]

Honestly, I'd like to know how many of these people that claim the uselessness and obsolescence of live drummer...

... has ever *played* with a live drummer?

Or, hell, has even played *live*?

There are good reasons for not wanting to use a live drummer:

- You want to do everything yourself.
- Your music is fine with a static groove through the whole tune.
- Can't fit one into your bedroom studio.
- Don't have the gear to record one right (mixer and mics)
- Don't have the knowlede how to record one right.
- Don't know a friendly drummer.
- Can't afford to hire one.
- Can't afford studio time to record one.
- You don't ever play live.
- Don't want to deal with drum kit logistics if you do play live.
- Don't have the need to improvise live.

And, sure, some others. It might just boil down to personality conflicts with the drummers you have known, but let's be honest: don't 90% of musicians have the same attitude problems? Some overplay, some don't listen to what else is going on, and some suck infinitely more than they think. But it's not just drummers.

But some people here are just talking out their asses when they claim that nobody needs live drums. And I think much of that attitude comes from plain ignorance for what it's like to play with a *good* live drummer, or to play live music *period*.

Escape the safe confines of your bedroom sometime. Listen to something else besides your favorite genre albums over and over. Go see a band of people playing *together*, not just playing simultaneously to a machine tempo.

Get some depth of knowledge and mature as a complete musician before you tell us what the world needs.

- m

[grotman]

Honestly, I'd like to know how many of these people that claim the uselessness and obsolescence of live drummer...

... has ever *played* with a live drummer?

Or, hell, has even played *live*?

There are good reasons for not wanting to use a live drummer:

- You want to do everything yourself.
- Your music is fine with a static groove through the whole tune.
- Can't fit one into your bedroom studio.
- Don't have the gear to record one right (mixer and mics)
- Don't have the knowlede how to record one right.
- Don't know a friendly drummer.
- Can't afford to hire one.
- Can't afford studio time to record one.
- You don't ever play live.
- Don't want to deal with drum kit logistics if you do play live.
- Don't have the need to improvise live.

And, sure, some others. It might just boil down to personality conflicts with the drummers you have known, but let's be honest: don't 90% of musicians have the same attitude problems? Some overplay, some don't listen to what else is going on, and some suck infinitely more than they think. But it's not just drummers.

But some people here are just talking out their asses when they claim that nobody needs live drums. And I think much of that attitude comes from plain ignorance for what it's like to play with a *good* live drummer, or to play live music *period*.

Escape the safe confines of your bedroom sometime. Listen to something else besides your favorite genre albums over and over. Go see a band of people playing *together*, not just playing simultaneously to a machine tempo.

Get some depth of knowledge and mature as a complete musician before you tell us what the world needs.

- m

Exactly

[lordtimbo]

Do people use samples and samplers because they are easier to use than live drums?

Because they live in an apartment and can't record real drums?

Or is it a variety thing: twenty snare sounds in one track, etc.,etc.?

Or do people prefer that totally controlled electronic sound?

All of the above.

I play hand percussion but I don't record it mostly for lack of mic and good acoustic space. Psychologically it's also nice for me to keep that separate; turning off the computer and playing ashiko for a while often gives me a creative kick, or just a way to relax.

I haven't bothered to learn to play a drum kit; they are bulky, loud, expensive, limited, and tricky to record properly. I have much respect for good drummers and good engineers though.

Also it's a style thing; I use lo-fi, glitchy, heavy and/or processed drums (or non-drum percussive sounds) as often as I use natural-sounding drums anyway.

A. a real drumkit has 20 different snare sounds, but the sampler doesn't get drunk and hit the mics, and doesn't need 20 takes to get it's part right.

B. the sampler shows up at all the sessions, and never has to leave early for it's day gig. It also shuts up any time you want it to.

C. The sampler never quits the band, never brings it's girlfriend to the studio, never forgets it's parts, and never thinks it's ears are better than the producer's.

D. a sequencer can count and has impeccable timing, groove and dynamics, and will make the correct tempo changes every time.

E. a sampler doesn't go to the bathroom for 10 minutes every 20 minutes and come out with a runny nose.

F. most real drummers don't come with a good drumkit and vice versa.

G. a sampler won't show up in newsgroups or forums dissing real drummers

H. you'll never catch your girlfriend sucking your sampler.

I. don't need to explain any more.

[Markleford]

H. you'll never catch your girlfriend sucking your sampler.