Loops - Sonar - SX3 - Live

[Architect]

I would recommend Live for stronger looping capabilities, I used Acid before and it's a great program I can't knock it, but in my opinion Live is like Acid on steroids. Live makes creating music a pleasure and editing is good, rewire is rock solid with most major apps (Pro Tools, SX, Reason, FL, Logic, etc) support is very good for the product, userbase is fanatic, I think Live would be a good compliment in many labs.

[groovepriest]

I'm in the same boat as Soulata--so I appreciate the question, but...

Is there a reason FL Studio is not being considered in this thread?

[soulata]

yep, I didn't like its workflow at all, pattern based and all.

k

[jsd]

I develop sound libraries for Sony so I'm probably biased but I think Acid is the king of loops. Live is pretty good but the sound quality is just always missing a little something for me. Cubase SX3 loop support is frankly embarrassing. It doesn't preview loops in real time against the project.

Acid is the only one of the three that will transpose a musical loop to the key of the project on the fly.

Usually I end up exporting submixes between Acid and Cubase. That seems to get me the best of all worlds. Like I'll have all the melody/chord/vox done in Cubase but with real simple drums, and I'll mix that down and put it in Acid to come up with a complex drum track. Or I'll have a good foundation idea in Acid and export that into Cubase for adding synths and stuff.

[steffensen]

i'm not an expert of either cubase or ACID, but i really cant see why ACID should be better for making a more complex beat out of a loop etc. the little i have played with cubase, tells me its pretty simple to do such things in there by now.

so jsd, please enlighten me/us of the benefits of ACID some more if u want, i for one must have missed them.

[jsd]

@steffensen: it's all about workflow. with Acid you can audition loops in real time at project tempo and key. so, searching for the perfect little synth riff to slot in? you can zip through dozens of loops in no time at all. plus with the new media library you can filter by keywords. looking for an "upbeat" "synth" "bass" loop? no prob. i've got upwards of 100,000 loops on my system so trying to find the perfect one quickly is key! acid makes it quick, easy and FUN to explore new combos of loops and samples.

there's nothing you can do with Acid that you absolutely CAN'T do with Cubase, but it will take you so much longer that it's not worth trying IMO.

btw, there is a free demo version of Acid on the sony website. go check it out and see what I mean.

btw, don't take this as Cubase bashing - I've been a user and staunch supporter since Cubase 3.7. I'm using SX3 as my main sequencer, and I really like it, but the "acid loop support" that they are touting as a major new feature is really really lame. Acid, Live and Logic 7(mac) do it much much better.

[steffensen]

jsd,
i see, but tell me, i personally dont use instrument loops (if i dont make them myself that is) and if i use any loop, i combine if with at least 2-4 others, and mangle things up to unrecognizable. so for me auditioning loops in real time isnt that important.
filter by keywords arent either really, as my loops are just named by numbers.
pitching and realtime streching is some things i could use tho. but then again, thats not _so_ essential that i'd go ACID.

what i am curious about tho, is:
"acid makes it quick, easy and FUN to explore new combos of loops and samples. "
"here's nothing you can do with Acid that you absolutely CAN'T do with Cubase, but it will take you so much longer that it's not worth trying IMO. "

what is there in the sence of combos that is so much easier and more inuitive that cubase sx when working with loops?

sure, i could download the demo and try, but then i had to install framework and its pretty informative and interesting to hear what a experienced user like u, have to say about this matter.

[stale bread]

i'm not sure i get it soulata, ableton Live is almost certainly the obvious choice unless there is some special reason you're trying to avoid using it. even if you want to use it in a linear fashion nothing compares to it for quickly on the fly recording loops in a linear fashion (i did say 'loops in a 'linear' fashion, which is exactly what the arrranger view will allow you to do, of course if you don't want loops you just click on the loop button and it won't loop.... you've already got tracktion nothing else in this thread will make your loop travels as creative, and flexible. Live will turn what ever you put into it whether it be somebody elses loops or loops that you created yourself into an instrument. along with the clip automation, triggering and recording of all of your movements makes any other choice almost laughable, for your posted intended use imho.

[stale bread]

I would think that at least on paper project 5 would come in a close second.

[headquest]

I would agree with stale bread. I abandoned Cubase after SX1, so can't comment on SX3 exceot to say that the workflow looks from screen shots to be even worse than before , and Acid seems to be a program on the way down so far as I can make out from the numerous complaints from users. Again, I have used Acide in the past and feel the GUI has now become very messy.

It's Ableton Live 4 all the way here now - I just love it. I think it will serve exactly your needs soulata, but agree that P5 v2 is also worth a look.

[soulata]

Hmm, Live sure looks good but...well, it seems I'll get both sooner or later (Cubase and Live that is).

[steffensen]

from what i can see on this matter, cubase sx is the best for PC atm. Live just looks..well..blurry. doubt i'll ever touch that program tbh.

[jsd]

jsd,
i see, but tell me, i personally dont use instrument loops (if i dont make them myself that is) and if i use any loop, i combine if with at least 2-4 others, and mangle things up to unrecognizable. so for me auditioning loops in real time isnt that important.
filter by keywords arent either really, as my loops are just named by numbers.

well what if you have 30 loops that you made yourself but they're all at different tempos and keys? you can hear them all at the current tempo and key automatically with acid just by clicking each loop in the explorer window. if i'm working on a song the key for me is being able to try new ideas really quickly. i can go through 100 loops and hear exactly what each one will sound like against the current project. acid makes it quick and simple.

what is there in the sence of combos that is so much easier and more inuitive that cubase sx when working with loops?

Cubase SX loop support is NOT real time. You have to load the loop into cubase and draw it on a track before you can hear it. It means constantly stopping what you're doing to hit File -> Import Audio. Whereas in Acid (and Live, and Logic 7) it's just another window that you can click around WHILE THE PROJECT IS PLAYING. And as I said, only Acid will pitch shift the loop while auditioning. In Cubase, the "preview" only plays the loop as it is, it doesn't even change the tempo to match the project tempo. One thing I really like in Acid is if I'm working something at 90BPM I can audition loops at any speed. A lot of times a 140BPM loop slowed down sounds really good.

sure, i could download the demo and try, but then i had to install framework and its pretty informative and interesting to hear what a experienced user like u, have to say about this matter.

well now that i've rambled a bit, go get the demo and let me know what you think.

-jsd-

[steffensen]

well what if you have 30 loops that you made yourself but they're all at different tempos and keys? you can hear them all at the current tempo and key automatically with acid just by clicking each loop in the explorer window. if i'm working on a song the key for me is being able to try new ideas really quickly. i can go through 100 loops and hear exactly what each one will sound like against the current project. acid makes it quick and simple.

ok, if i do instrument loops, i do it in the current project, so i never have 30 instrument loops laying around. so again, for me personally this option isnt much of a use for me i guess.

Cubase SX loop support is NOT real time. You have to load the loop into cubase and draw it on a track before you can hear it. It means constantly stopping what you're doing to hit File -> Import Audio. Whereas in Acid (and Live, and Logic 7) it's just another window that you can click around WHILE THE PROJECT IS PLAYING. And as I said, only Acid will pitch shift the loop while auditioning. In Cubase, the "preview" only plays the loop as it is, it doesn't even change the tempo to match the project tempo. One thing I really like in Acid is if I'm working something at 90BPM I can audition loops at any speed. A lot of times a 140BPM loop slowed down sounds really good.

first of all, i really see why some may like acid after ure points here, but i gotta say this, and once again, this is just me personally.
in cubase i can keyassign the audio import, i for example have Alt-A.
second, as i said before, i always combine several loops, and by that i mean slices of each loop with the others. and then it really doesnt matter if i can realtime check it with the tune or not, as i'm not gonna use the loop as is anyway. but sure, i really see how all u wrote could be most useful when needed. and if i managed to build my own loop library someday (much to lazy for things like that i guess..) i for sure could use all of the advantages uve mentioned here, so i'll most deffenite keep'em in mind. so thanks for the enlightening jsd!

[stale bread]

from what i can see on this matter, cubase sx is the best for PC atm. Live just looks..well..blurry. doubt i'll ever touch that program tbh.

Live Looks blurry!?
you say you put loops together and mangle them to the point where they're unrecognizable but you don't think you'll ever touch Live!!!!!???? your last name must be steinberg. that's like saying you've been in the desert for 3 days without anything to drink and you are thirsty as hell but won't drink water.