ArtsAcoustic VS Lexicon 960 (or any lexi hardware) :)

[AndrewSimon]

Lexicons aren't really $20,000 are they?

Top of the range, yes, although you can pick up an MPX for hundreds rather than thousands. And the MPXs are pretty good - I'd much rather use an MPX100 (bottom of the range) than Ambience etc - or pretty well all of the native s/w verbs. In fact I think I'd rather use an older LX version than most s/w verbs. I still have an Alex which sounds better than most s/w verbs (although it's half broken now).

But it's down to taste, as ever...if someone gave me a TC6000, I'm pretty sure I'd sell it straight away and buy something useful instead ( I'm not daft enough to refuse one ). TCs sound thin and plastic to me.

I own a MPX100, it's a joke in my opinion and does not deserve the Lexicon name.

Wanna buy it? $50 PM me.

[bmanic]

can somebody tell me where I can hear those 23000$ Lexicon units in action. Any project, mp3, song ,artist...

Hmm.. I'd say any top 30 single in the current pop charts has a lexicon 960 or TC 6000 on it. Ever wondered how the vocal can be so 'big' and in-your-face? It's the lexicon early reflections doing miracles. Also, ever wondered how they place a lot of sound far 'behind' in a 3D kind of way? Lexicon or TC again doing it's magic, giving synths and instruments the Z axis position.

- bManic

[kritikon]

I own a MPX100, it's a joke in my opinion and does not deserve the Lexicon name.

They're certainly a long way off the good Lexicon units, but I'd still use an MPX100 rather than most native plugins. Which must mean most s/w reverbs are beyond a joke, then?

I've got a real old Digitech unit from the early 90s (possibly even 80s) and I'd even rather have that than most native reverbs. In fact I'd rather have the reverb from all my h/w units than native s/w (Princeton and convolution excepted). I suppose I'd draw the line at a Quadraverb though Tell you what...I'll swap you my old Digitech for the MPX if you hate it that much...

[Arksun]

can somebody tell me where I can hear those 23000$ Lexicon units in action. Any project, mp3, song ,artist...

Hmm.. I'd say any top 30 single in the current pop charts has a lexicon 960 or TC 6000 on it. Ever wondered how the vocal can be so 'big' and in-your-face? It's the lexicon early reflections doing miracles. Also, ever wondered how they place a lot of sound far 'behind' in a 3D kind of way? Lexicon or TC again doing it's magic, giving synths and instruments the Z axis position.

- bManic

Actually the opposite is now true. More and more mainstream big budget material is software driven, a lot still use those hardware units though yes.

Someone raised the point that if you had 20 grand to spend on the lexicon, you'd just go and buy that anyways. Not true. If a plugin like the ArtsAcousitc (just upgraded guys btw) really DID offer the same quality. Then said producer if he had half a brain, would much rather buy that, to which he can use as many instances as he wants, perfect automation control, and save the rest of the 20 grand left on other equipment!.

My personal belief is that yes, the best software reverbs do match the best hardware now soundwise, it's all code, there is no magic monkey in the black box and all those who rave about how untouchable Lexicon is, is more a testament to the power of the brand name, than any real world usage.

It's happening on every level now. ArtsAcoustic for reverb, Sonalksis for eq, Sytrus 1.5 (which can easily match the richness of hardware synths) for soft-synths.

But yeah, on the other hand, maybe that rich producer that wants a lexicon, will never be able to deal with the thought of a cheap software reverb being as good, in that sense, he SHOULD buy the Lexicon for the simple fact he just wont ever feel comfortable with the software one. This seed of doubt will always be in his mind and thus affect his judgement.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway

Arksun

[ericj23]

emm - having tried the arts acoustic it just doesnt come close to the vss3 for powercore - and i do mean not even close - it's beat on every level flexibility, clarity etc it is native reverb is still a long way behind

that reverb is actually from tc system 3000 (about 8 - 10 years old). The new top spec vss4 has been available for about 4 years and is the mainstay of the system 6000.

im sorry but the best reverbs are still in those hardware boxes - and the people who coded them want to keep it that way - becuase those high prices are what has paid for years of R&D - vss 5 coming soon ???

[MickGael]

Interesting thread.

All I can say is that no plugin I have ever used comes close to the Lexicon PCM 81 and 91. Owned 'em and used 'em for years. Crushed me to have to sell them.

That said, there are some plugins that are more than adequate - just not "as good" IMHO

[jmh]

can somebody tell me where I can hear those 23000$ Lexicon units in action. Any project, mp3, song ,artist...

Hmm.. I'd say any top 30 single in the current pop charts has a lexicon 960 or TC 6000 on it. Ever wondered how the vocal can be so 'big' and in-your-face? It's the lexicon early reflections doing miracles. Also, ever wondered how they place a lot of sound far 'behind' in a 3D kind of way? Lexicon or TC again doing it's magic, giving synths and instruments the Z axis position.

- bManic

Actually the opposite is now true. More and more mainstream big budget material is software driven, a lot still use those hardware units though yes.

And actually it's not true. If we're speaking of Britneys and Christinas and such mainstream material, it's still done with big $$ gear in studios larger than most of our homes... Reading about people and studios who produce this sort of mass music is rather simple. A subscription to a magazine or two where such people are interviewed is recommended.

My personal belief is that yes, the best software reverbs do match the best hardware now soundwise, it's all code, there is no magic monkey in the black box and all those who rave about how untouchable Lexicon is, is more a testament to the power of the brand name, than any real world usage.

Glad you're willing to rephrase it like that - it's your BELIEF.

Some of us, on the other hand, have access to such gear, at least occasionally, and some of us are vocal about it on forums. My - albeit limited - experience with high end gear has proven me that these "raved" things like Lexicons and TCs are raved about for a reason.

Even though my opinion is that AAR is the king of the hill in VST reverbs, something like TC System 6000 it ain't. All it takes is hearing these two in comparison.

Opinions are always opinions, and one popular opinion is that all the rich producers, engineers, mixers etc. don't know shit and pay for brand names... you're entitled to your opinion, but please consider the possibility that there are people around familiar with both sides of the fence.

For me, one of the most eye (should that be ear?) opening moments was visiting bManic's school's studio and get to hear some "raved about" gear, ranging from a bigass PT system to TC System 6000 loaded with every available plugin. Even with my flu I had back then, what I heard convinced me once again that the difference to what's available in native (meaning 'real' native CPU driven, not taking UAD and PowerCore into account) land is still big enough to make purchases of such caliber sensible (budget permitting).

(Something people always tend to forget... Lexicon, TC, Eventide, Quantec etc. have so much more experience in these things. How on earth people assume that new developers with a couple of years of experience can come up with say reverbs that don't take that much CPU and somehow deliver the same quality as products from companies with 25 years of experience in developing their products...)

* edit - first typo, probably two more edits sooner or later *

* second edit - reformatting so some of the sentences got at least somewhat sensible *

Regards,

JMH

[bmanic]

Thanks my friend from saving me from a rahter emarrasing reply to Arksun.

Amen to every word u said!
Cheers!
bManic

[Arksun]

Thanks my friend from saving me from a rahter emarrasing reply to Arksun.

Amen to every word u said!
Cheers!
bManic

Great spelling my friend

I stand by my opinion, yours is still simply just that, and I'm talking about the UK top 40 charts with regards to reverb usage, spouting out a couple of names like Britney and Christina doesn't mean all top 40 tracks are made in 'big' studios that only used hardware reverbs in that particular session either. If your source is from magazine reading you're in no position to suggest your 'opinion' is any better than mine, so we'll both stand by our opinions.

But please, thank you jmh for a) putting words into my mouth with regards to an opinion of 'rich' producers and b) Assuming I've had no experience with hardware reverbs first hand

In my opinion, the best software reverbs today can match what the hardware ones can do in a final recording and that's what counts.

Some of the people in this forum compare the realtime output of a lesser host sequencer going out their not so hot soundcard output to the raw out of the TC or the Lexicon, well of course there's going to be a difference!. What matters is the mixed down sound that gets used in the actual mix. Thats how fair comparisons between reverbs should be made too.

If you feel jmh i'm completely wrong and hardware reverbs really do have this magic dust yet to be reached by software ones (even though ex-Neve guys sonalksis achieved it with regards to software eq in a very short space of time) then you're entitled to it, i'm sticking with my opinion

[loophead]

The TRUTH according to me !

As the former main algorithm, preset and in several cases - product designer for Eventide Inc. from the 4000 series through the 7000 series Orville and Eclipse I can tell you two things:

(1) there are several (in this case reverb) plugins available in VST/ AU format which are at the level you would get in a TC, Lexi or Eventide (in ASENDING order of quality, greatness and quantity 'used on hits' !).

(2) The internal structures are different and you may or may not know how to tweak a given plug to get a sound you are after let alone begin to A/B it !

Why did you think software is not as good ... well one poster was right; experience- but also hardware companies want to sell HARDWARE !

YOU cant crack HARDWARE. It will still be some while untill they make software that will compete with their own UNCRACKABLE products !

Well there are several plugs by small groups of brilliant designers which rise to this 'hardware' level. AA is one of them...

You want others - start new threads I may chime in...

[greendoor]

Wow!

[droolmaster0]

I am not an expert by any means. I've never tried one of the really high end reverbs. I did own a ksp8 for awhile. To my mind, the AA reverb sounds at least as good. But I may be delusional. I also think that the r66 and princeton sound every bit as good (but different). Ah, I've had too much to drink anyway...

[Frippertronix]

Lexicons aren't really $20,000 are they?

See link below for the best deals:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=lex ... a=N&tab=wf

Okay, but I'm busy looking at Bentleys tomorrow...

I guess if you have to have the best.

But is it really? Has anyone here heard one of these in person?

[Frippertronix]

YOU cant crack HARDWARE. It will still be some while untill they make software that will compete with their own UNCRACKABLE products !

But you can capture IR's.

[Frippertronix]

Can anyone compare these two? I mean can anyone throw some sax/voice samples (or whatever) through both beasts with similar presets???

That would be interesting to hear

Don't worry about it. Just get a Peavey.