SS2 or wait for Studiophonik

[Squids]

I find it really strange that Sonic Synth 2's strengths, as described by forum members here, are almost exactly the same as SampleTank 2XL's strengths (besides SS2's synths). Keyboards, Electric Acoustic and Bass guitars, Acoustic Drumkits, orchestral textures, etc.

Maybe the new SampleTank 2.1 soundset will help to differentiate them a little bit? Nobody outside of IK really knows anything about it at this point, but I would assume that it will bring SampleTank 2XL to another level - after all, why else would they go to the trouble?

But now I'm getting really confused - with Sonic Synth 2, StudioPhonik, and Philharmonik, what is the rationale behind SampleTank 2 itself? It won't even be able to load Philharmonik/StudioPhonik(assumedly) sounds - it doesn't loud outside samplesets - so it's not exactly a hub, except for pricing-wise.

So now I don't really know what to expect from the update. What I'm really hoping for are just improvements in quality and quantity of what's already there - everything! Jack of all trades, master of none - why does it have to be master of none? I mean, maybe it can really excel, more than it does now, without interfering with the plans for SS2/the Phoniks. So I'm looking forward to hearing more...

First of all, the strengths and weaknesses thing is opinions here. Some could argue that strengths of ST2XL sound-wise are other instrument categories or the loops etc. Plus, it is different material recorded by different people. Most of ST2XL was recorded in Europe by IK Italy and most of Sonik Synth 2 was recorded by me in the US (although I've traveled the world for many of our samples too).

But, in terms of differentiating SampleTank 2 I think a key point is being missed here. SampleTank 2 is the only one that reads Expansion Tanks, Sonik Capsules, Sonik Synth 2 sounds (and eventually it will be able to read Philharmonik and Studiophonik too just in a future update beyond 2.1) and another key difference is that it also has IMPORT of your OWN Wave, AIFF, SDII, SampleCell or Akai samples. That is a a big difference right there. Think of SampleTank 2 as the mothership. The flagship. The customizable workstation that happens to come with the broadest sound set. It's actually very simple. Look at it like this:

SampleTank 2.1XL - lots of sample and fx management utilities included (that the others don't have) such as customizable key words you can add to your sounds, extra features for multi-fx such as load/save patches plus lock and other stuff (that I don't know about you but I use all the time!), program change maps you can save etc. Plus, the ability to import sounds making it open-ended and customizable for whatever sample collection you want to build... hence the name SAMPLETANK! In terms of the included sounds set, well, you get a little of practically EVERYTHING! But, not a lot of synths and not a lot of orchestral instruments and certainly not nearly as much guitar/bass/drums as Studiophonik but that is why they exist!
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So, you have ST powered modules that are designed to do more specfic things:

2. Sonik Synth 2 : Think sound-wise of three types of synth/keyboards. A Motif, an Atmosphere and a Vintage Keys module rolled into one. It's an all around SYNTH WORKSTATION. But, the word "synth" doesn't just mean "Moogs and Prophets". Think about what a "synth" such as a Triton, Motif or Phantom has and then it makes perfect sense why Sonik Synth 2 has much of the same (just a lot bigger).

3. Miroslav Philharmonik: A full orchestra and choir with much more in depth performance articulations and a complete focus on symphonic material only.

4. Studiophonik : Guitar, Bass, Drums (plus some pianos, organs and horns) with the distinction between it and any other ST2 sound is that it is both much deeper into offering different BRANDS of instruments (instead of just a "funk guitar" you have a "funk strat, funk tele, funk les paul etc etc".) and then there is an extra level of mixing control and other studio-like features to the sound. The character of the instruments, fx and special programming allow for recreating authentic sounds of famous bands and doing a virtual band in the studio with the most realism of any one plug-in

I don't think it is that confusing. Sure, there is some overlap of instrument TYPES but they are different samples and that's GREAT because for those that liked the meat & potatoes in ST2 they can get SS2 and have even more PLUS the analog/digital synths (whether they even care about the analog/digital synths or not the value is still worth it). If they like the guitars in Sonik Synth 2 or the drums in Studio Drum Capsule then they can look forward to Studiophonik which will give them even MORE of what they like and to a greater degree of focus.

The bottom line is, if it is something that you'll use in your music then it is worth getting IMO. Even if it isn't exactly the way you would have designed it. These workstations can't please everybody with every sound but they are not supposed to. They are supposed to offer a massive amount of variety of quality material that will have enough to please most people and keep more people happy overal with their purchase. It has worked for hardware keyboard manufacturers and it seems to work well for us too.

[Kim Lajoie]

I find it really strange that Sonic Synth 2's strengths, as described by forum members here, are almost exactly the same as SampleTank 2XL's strengths (besides SS2's synths). Keyboards, Electric Acoustic and Bass guitars, Acoustic Drumkits, orchestral textures, etc.

Don't discount the synths! If you think of SampleTank2 as an all-round workstation, then Sonik Synth 2 is like a workstation with a super-charged synth section! Also keep in mind that the instruments in Sonik Synth 2 are different to those in SampleTank2, so while they might both have similar strengths, there's no actual overlap. More choice is good!

But now I'm getting really confused - with Sonic Synth 2, StudioPhonik, and Philharmonik, what is the rationale behind SampleTank 2 itself? It won't even be able to load Philharmonik/StudioPhonik(assumedly) sounds - it doesn't loud outside samplesets - so it's not exactly a hub, except for pricing-wise.

SampleTank2 does load samples. I've done it many times, and so have other people. ST2 also loads all the ExpansionTank libraries and Sonic Reality's Capsule series. It also loads all the Sonik Synth 2 instruments. So you can see, SampleTank2 is meant to operate as the centre of all your SampleTank content.

Philharmonik won't be able to be loaded into SampleTank2 at release, and that's because it takes advantage of engine features that aren't in the ST2 engine yet. Yet. The cool new engine features will eventually make their way to the main SampleTank2 engine, and you'll be able to access Philharmonik instruments within the SampleTank2 plugin. Maybe sooner than you think. Titles such as Philharmonik and StudioPhonik are trailblazers, driving the development of new and better features for the SampleTank2 engine, so that eventually the benefit of those features can be had for ALL SampleTank2 instruments.

-Kim.

[Rellik]

SampleTank2 does load samples. I've done it many times, and so have other people. ST2 also loads all the ExpansionTank libraries and Sonic Reality's Capsule series. It also loads all the Sonik Synth 2 instruments. So you can see, SampleTank2 is meant to operate as the centre of all your SampleTank content.

Why, though, does it load AKAI and SampleCell but not such formats as SoundFont2, Giga, and Kontakt? Surely that's significant somehow? I wouldn't imagine that it's just an oversight, or that they are working on it for a later version - I am almost sure there's some reason that IK prefers to keep SampleTank2 closed to these popular formats. Not that that's not ok - it's not my preference, but it's not my choice.

Needlessly to say, if when you think "sample importation" you think "AKAI", or you think "Expansion Tanks", then I can see why SampleTank 2 makes sense above/in addition to Sonik Synth 2 for you, as a hub.

But if when you think "sample importation" you think "Kontakt", "Giga", or any other sampling format in which libraries normally come, then the reason for SampleTank 2 existing is less clear. Sonik Synth 2 and SampleTank 2 cover much of the same range, and from what *I* can personally tell, have similar strengths, except that Sonik Synth 2 is normally acclaimed to sound much better and have its "super-charged" synth section. I'm not referring to the esoundz gold and platinum members who are the types who are willing to buy as much as they can because the sounds are different, even though they cover the same range, or there are differences in certain sub-sections or small differences in functionality. I'm just talking about for your average (I know everyone has difference conceptions of what's average) consumer, who doesn't plan on becoming an esoundz/SonicReality junkie - and it seems like, for them, AT THE MOMENT, Sonik Synth 2 is without all that much of a doubt the superior library (and please remember that I'm not talking about esoundz silver/gold/platinum members, professionas, millionaires, what have you - we're strictly in common, average composer territory here - we're in "either/or land", not "both land").

Now that I've gotten that specification out of the way, the reason I say "AT THE MOMENT" is because of the SampleTank 2.1 soundset. I know I was talking about this in my last post, and maybe somewhere in the words of Squids and Kim is an answer to my question, but I didn't see it, so I hope nobody minds if I re-iterate it in a hopefully more clear way. What is the purpose of the 2.1 soundset update? Does it intend to bring up the quality of the ST2 soundset so that it's no longer over-shadowed by SS2, the details of which I was explaining in the above paragraph? Or is it merely an update to further entice future esoundz gold/platinum members, who don't need the ST2 soundset to be better than SS2's because they just want it as an "IK/SR hub" anyway?

If I'm being confusing in my post, please let me know. I feel like I'm not communicating my point well - maybe I shouldn't have been up so late playing Crystal Chronicles at my friend's birthday celebration last night . I'm not meaning to say that it's "wrong" that SS2 should have a generally superior soundset to that of ST2 - I'm fairly happy with ST2's sounds. I'm just curious as to what IK/SR's stance on the matter is, given the fact that 2.1 is coming.

[Squids]

Reading Giga only makes sense if you have Giga-like features (particularly streaming). There are plenty of samplers that have copied Giga out there if that is what you are looking for. That's not what ST is.

Reading Kontakt? Does Kontakt read SampleTank? There aren't much more Kontakt libraries then there are SampleTank libraries. If you like East West products then you get Kontakt (or just settle for the Kompakt player they include) and if you like Sonic Reality then you get SampleTank (and/or other samplers because we also support Kontakt, EXS, HAL, Reason etc.)

Reading SoundFonts? That is starting to go a little off from what most pros use and ST2 (at $499 for XL mind you) is geared toward semi-pro to pro musicians. SoundFonts also suggest "cheap" even if technically maybe it isn't necessarily so. (ie. some SFs are pretty good and some are cheese... like anything else I suppose). It's also difficult format for sound developers to maintain respect from users for their licensing because for some reason people think that all SoundFonts should be free (because they get mixed in with a sea of trading... some of which is legal and some of which is not and it is VERY difficult for people to know). You don't see a lot of top sound developers churning out SF libraries for example. But, besides that there are enough SF players out there already for those that ARE into them. SFZ+ is a great one for example.

But, even if you say that you disagree and would really like to be able to read Giga, Kontakt, SoundFonts, HALion and SampleChan into your SampleTank there are sample conversion programs out there that can do it. The important thing to realize here is that SampleTank can read even sounds that are imported with conversion utilities like Translator, CDXtract etc. But, Sonik Synth 2 cannot! SampleTank 2 is open. Sonik Synth 2 is closed. Maybe the sound set of SS2 is even bigger than ST2 and less money. But, it doesn't open additional samples from other sources. SampleTank 2 does.

I hope that makes it clearer for you. Besides just thinking about it in terms of what it will import/read or not read, think about it this way. Sonik Synth 2 is a massive collection of sounds that you can use as material to compose with or layer together, synthesize and process to make patches with. It's a sound module like a JV2080 was a sound module. But, SampleTank 2 is something you can take a vocal track of yours and import it, mess around with stretch and play chords with it or mangle it up using ST2 as a sound design, processing and swiss army knife of production tools. I would NEVER be without my SampleTank in computer music production. It's way too useful. Even if I rely a lot on our own sounds for making music, I will use ST2 as another TOOL to being able to do certain things.

So, it DOES make sense in a lot of ways to have SampleTank 2XL, Sonik Synth, Miroslav Philharmonik, Sonik Capsules, Expansion Tanks and Studiophonik. That's MY main writing set up right there.

[Squids]

SampleTank2 does load samples. I've done it many times, and so have other people. ST2 also loads all the ExpansionTank libraries and Sonic Reality's Capsule series. It also loads all the Sonik Synth 2 instruments. So you can see, SampleTank2 is meant to operate as the centre of all your SampleTank content.

Now that I've gotten that specification out of the way, the reason I say "AT THE MOMENT" is because of the SampleTank 2.1 soundset. I know I was talking about this in my last post, and maybe somewhere in the words of Squids and Kim is an answer to my question, but I didn't see it, so I hope nobody minds if I re-iterate it in a hopefully more clear way. What is the purpose of the 2.1 soundset update? Does it intend to bring up the quality of the ST2 soundset so that it's no longer over-shadowed by SS2, the details of which I was explaining in the above paragraph? Or is it merely an update to further entice future esoundz gold/platinum members, who don't need the ST2 soundset to be better than SS2's because they just want it as an "IK/SR hub" anyway?

I'm just curious as to what IK/SR's stance on the matter is, given the fact that 2.1 is coming.

The purpose of the updated sound set is simply to give a little more value to the user to keep ST2.1XL one of the best deals on the market given all of its features. Also, ST2.1 has newly updated sample engines and the new Stretch is really awesome so we wanted to make use of that. Plus, there were some things that could be tweaked and improved in the XL collection so IK decided to let Sonic Reality go through the whole collection and tweak it up. It's more "newly revised" than say "altered to be like something else". For the most part it is the same just a little bigger and better. But, it certainly isn't made to have 5,000 sounds like SS2 to compete head to head. What would be the purpose of that?

Again, SampleTank 2.1XL is the flagship. It has a broad range of sounds (even some tastes of the various ST2 format libs and modules added for those that don't have them yet... nice bonus) and shows off some diversity of what the latest SampleTank can do. If that's ALL one has from IK then it has a diverse sound set they can write complete songs from out of the box. If they have Sonik Synth 2 as well then that aspect is just mixed in with the power to do that from SS2.

Going the other way around. If one is an SS2 user and they want to use ST2.1 as a "hub" for IK/SR sounds but aren't as much interested in getting the XL collection they have the option to get the "L" version for several hundred dollars less. You get the SampleTank 2.1L version when you want mostly the Swiss Army Knife of tools and flexibility to customize your sample collection and don't want to pay for more sounds that the XL version has... maybe you don't need them. But, as you say, those that can afford it usually do! More XLs sell than Ls about 100 to 1.

[Rellik]

Good point about the sample conversion - I haven't found one for a reasonable price yet, though. (Because I do find that most libraries one finds can be had in Kontakt/Giga/EXS24 formats, and even SF2, but very rarely SampleTank - only certain sample developers support SampleTank. You can't load any current orchestral library into SampleTank, as far as I know... EastWest, Project SAM, Sonic Implants, even Donnie Christian and of course there are free samplesets by people like Hermann Witkam, all available in various formats but almost never in SampleTank. How do you make a SampleTank format library, anyway - is there a way to create the 4 macro's, and embed modulation response?) I do use sfz for my SF2 needs, of course, but it would be really cool to be able to use the ST2 engine with SF2's, and would be nice to keep it all centralized.

Also a good point about the sample importation and STRETCH-application. I'll be looking forward to ST2.1 for it's enhanced STRETCH - I might try your idea out for myself (I really like the Harmonics adjuster - it's like a filter but way cooler sounding, and the fact that it's spread across discrete values also has a cool effect when making wide automation changes).

Thanks for all the interesting points, Squids - I think I might be starting to be able to see things from a different perspective. If I do become a professional someday, then I'm sure I'll end up an esoundz platinum member myself . However unlikely it may be to somehow become a professional composer/producer while at the same time studying to become and subsequently becoming an electrical/computer engineer... here's hoping it's possible.

[Squids]

For the ability to read lots of different libraries I think that Kontakt/EXS/HALion are some of the best general purpose samplers with lots of features (although even then I am not sure about total compatibility converting non-native format libraries but certainly close and you can tweak from there).

SampleTank 2XL is not meant to be the all-purpose "library player". I look at it as a box of music production tools. You have a ton of native ST format content available and if you are looking for orchestral material well, we DO have something different to offer! You CAN translate other orchestral material or a lot of things but not to use ST2XL as your library hub but more if you wanted to bring in sounds to customize your set up and utilize the sound shaping and performance features of ST2.1

Each person uses ST2 differently. I think the most popular strengths are:

1. To use it as a central station for all ST2 native sounds (from ETs, SCs, SS2 or downloadable esoundz...)

2. To use it to import Wave/AIFF samples from your tracks or from various sources so you can manipulate with Stretch or process and mangle the sounds... using ST2 as a creative production tool.

3. Composing with its sound set even if you also have other ST or imported sound sets... sounds are still very important and there are some gems in the ST2XL library.

[krank]

when you say it sucks for natural instruments you just listed two categories of naturals: brass and winds. that's pathetic to evaluate such a large category of instruments on two sections out of the library. what about the strings, ethnic, vocal, trons, etc? if you havent checked out the drum sounds i dont know how much you have used the instrument in general. it seems like you got to browse a few patches at a store and made up your mind so quickly. the drum section is fuggin massive

i personally believe that drums dont lend themselves to being isolated in wave format cause then you have to load them into a sampler, thus making them what a rompler drum patch is. and yeah if you're playing a GM drum map on the keyboard it might not sound so hot(the "no-soul johnson") but the I-map is great on the keyboard.

I own Sonic Synth 2; making guesses about my having 'just played around with it in a store' is foolish. As to 'what about the strings, ethnic, vocal, trons, etc?', I don't think the strings are that great, nor the others (some of the ethnics are even a bit embarassing). I've been through almost all the sounds in the library *except* the drums, for the reason I stated in my original post (plus I already have a large collection of .waw drum samples).

The original poster said he was explicitly interested in natural-sounding samples from real instruments. He asked if SS2 could suffice instead of Miroslav. This doesn't seem to warrant a complete review of all the instrument types in the SS2 collection. I don't think the original poster will find himself satisfied with SS2 if he's really after something like the Miroslav, which is why I chimed in.

For the record, I'm all in all pretty happy about SS2, like I said, it has some really great synth and keyboard sounds. However, in providing a huge jack-of-all-trades kind of library, I wish the designers would have focused more on quality above quantity.

As to the sales-pitching, I just find it oddly pronounced on this forum - much more so than with the other company forums on KVR. I should however add that I have gotten very good service from eSounds, and a great deal on SS2 through the group buy.

[Kim Lajoie]

The original poster said he was explicitly interested in natural-sounding samples from real instruments. He asked if SS2 could suffice instead of Miroslav. I don't think the original poster will find himself satisfied with SS2 if he's really after something like the Miroslav, which is why I chimed in.

The comparison was with StudioPhonik, which isn't out yet.

This doesn't seem to warrant a complete review of all the instrument types in the SS2 collection.

I think it does. The original poster didn't describe specifically which instruments were important, so I think it's best to give a brief run-down of where Sonik Synth 2's strengths are, so it can be seen if it will be good value, useful, or maybe not the right tool for the job. It's all about giving the right information to people so they can make good decisions and know what to expect.

-Kim.

[Mr. Tunes]

hi krank sorry for being a dweezil to you
just wasnt sure if you were giving a legit review. it's just hard to fathom someone buying this library and not checking the drums.
let's hug

[krank]

hi krank sorry for being a dweezil to you
just wasnt sure if you were giving a legit review. it's just hard to fathom someone buying this library and not checking the drums.
let's hug

Aaaw...

Kim, I realise that I unfortunately had Miroslav and Studiophonic confused, my bad.

[Kim Lajoie]

Feel the love...

-Kim.

[zai]

I have been enjoying reading some of the postings around here...what a joy to read long and detailed replys. I don't think there's one company that would have this much support out there. Thanks guys...and keep up the great work.

And enjoy those "pro" IK/SR comments...well, this IS the company's forum...what do you expect to find here.

Anyway, keep those plug-ins and sounds coming...been a pleasure playing with them so far.

Zai

P.S. where do you guys find the time to post such great posts? :p