Aging and music

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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Some interesting points here...first I have no agenda and I'm not complaining about anything. Pantsdown666 makes a good point about musical tastes getting stuck in the 30's....I have seen this and lived it.

But my point is more about being able to relate to music these days. I can't relate to the stones anymore...I mean I can't even fathom what their lives must be like...ozzy too...I think the recording industry is missing out on a huge market place here...though today's country may fill some of that void. I do notice that people in my area my age, if they have a newer cd it's usually today's country.

But let's face some facts....many of us have worked hard to be where we are, our kids are growing up and we're not saddled by "the kids" as much. Even if your kids are still at home, baby sitters, scheduling a life and such is a thing of the past.

But I dont know about you guys, I would surely rather see a middle aged overweight woman get a start then another plastic barbie Doll. The musicians we grew up with gave up music years ago and traded it in for enterprises. But from retail I can say that there are a lot of us out there...a lot. Far too many seem to try to live out their childhood dreams by pushing their kids to follow suit.

But let's do a mock study of two guitarists (cause that's what I am and it's my post :P ) Guitarist A was in the local high school band, went on and joined a band that went on to fame, fortune ect. Guitarist B is the same age but played his guitar as an outlet. He worked hard all day, first in school, then at his profession...still playing his guitar, writing and enjoying music.

Now A has gone onto being more then a guitar player, but an entity. Where B has just kept plugging along (kinda the turtle and the hare when I think about it). A has to be more then a guitar player, in fact in the scheme of things his talent as a guitar player often takes a backseat to the image he presents. He goes on tour for a whole year, partying and playing the same show night after night. B is working and looks forward to his time with his music, it seems he might have more reason to experiment more then A, who would be concerned with image. A can't try something totally out of tradition because his fans expect to hear those hits...seems too me that becomes a rut. B can experiment and if it really sounds awful who cares he can erase it and no one will ever hear it...he has more freedom of expression imo.

Now of course one could argue that A could do the same in his "time off" and that does happen with some. But we have seen many others get caught up in the lifestyle and I wonder if they even pick up their instruments, or did the tour burn them out...meanwhile B keeps moving along slow but steady, learning and having fun.

So now both reach say 50, does it not stand to reason that B may have grown more over those years then A? Therefore isn't it possible we are listening to so-so musicians, while very talented artists are complete unknowns?

Along the same token, if you take some older bands that had success early then faded away...did they peak in their life before their life got started? It makes me wonder what we are missing out on. Fortunately the internet gives us a way to get to hear some of that and I think my theory can be easily proven.

I think I would like to see music go back to more local scenes and less big stage. The funny thing is I wouldn't want to be touring, I wouldn't want to be famous...and I can honestly say that if music had of lead down a path of fame, it would of been lethal...I wouldn't of survived. As it was I spent too many years with a straw up my nose..I wouldn't of survived.

Now think about the radio, back in my day we heard all the newest songs through a mono 3 1/2" speaker on a clock radio. Today it's MTV and VH1, the radio waves are still very geared to the younger generation. Meanwhile we the the rebels and youth of yesterday seem to be expected to pull our trousers up to our chins, listen to talk radio, watch this week and washington and move to Florida...who here is ready for that? In the words of the Nuge himself "I said I know there isn't anybody out there who came to be even a little bit mellow tonight, those who came her to be mellow can turn around and get the F out". Now who here is ready to leave?

So what I'm saying is, I think local radio stations could do themselves a favor and target us...not with talk radio, not with political shows...but with music from our peers, our coworkers, our neighbors, our friends...people we can relate to..sorry I can't relate to jessica Simpson, to be honest I wouldn't even date her if I was isngle and she was oddly infatuated with me. I also can't relate to say Steven Tyler though I know where he lives..:hihi:

I'm not talking riches, fame, stardom...just plain having fun and having a outlets for that fun...I think a whole concept is being glossed over for the next plastic fake to come along...I think those of us who have stuck to our dreams and art form deserve to let our peers see what we've done (not the world).

I really think that there is a market for radio stations that they are ignoring. Back in the day if we wanted to hear non-mainstream music we turned to college station...huh? I know many heads are nodding now :hihi:...but now where can we turn? I'm sorry I don't want to see EVH now, I wouldn't want to see the stones now...look at Mick Mars...no thanx....I dont want to see the artists I liked in my youth now all old and falling apart..I'm sorry the just depressing. But if I heard an old high school Friend was in a band and they were playing at a local club I would want to see that.

I have wanted to get opinions and I hope more come but I ma pleased with the replies so far. From retail nad special crap we did with radio stations and such I have a few friends that are ex on air personalities turned program directors. I know that the radio scene is dropping and more and more the stations go talk radio...I'm not my father..I dont want talk radio....I also dont want to see a bunch of snot nose overpaid hacks...but I would love a station I could put on that specialized in local music, promoted shows of local acts at local clubs, a station for the community, and with musicians from the community...in fact I am considering pitching the idea to some radio stations. Remember internet radio hits the whole world. IMO for old fashion radio to survive they need to reach out to those in their listening range and the hell with anything beyond that.

One of my two associate degrees is in Public Communication. I got it from a local community college, I went because it was the closest thing I could find at the time to what I wanted. I wanted to learn music production, but that wasn't exactly a popular college curriculum then. I didn't learn what I wanted though.

If you've read through both these huge posts of mine, I just wanna say thanx for your time..as always I welcome more input...:D
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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I ve tried to put Hinks ideas to lyrics and cant get anything that doesnt sound abit too condescending, fatalistic and cynical to work.

Either way, I agree hink. Channels like VH-1, and E! are a rot on american society. Mindless dribble spews from those stations 24/7. showing us how the other half lives. I start feeling very XOXO'sish when I see that carp...

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Hink wrote:...In fact I think many of the kvrer's in my age group are pretty much genuine. I know I consider myself so, I've got nothing to prove or hide. I don't need to boast, I don't need to embellish...I try to keep it real...
Awwwww :hug:
:wink:

Hink, I agree with your sentiments but unfortunately, popular music/movies/etc. has never really been much about associating with the artists envolved, rather, it's almost always been about creating in the audience the desire to have a life as glamorous and exciting as the artist/actor/performer. Kids who get into Britney don't sit there going, "Yeah, I know how it is. She's just like me." They're sitting there going, "Wow! It would be SO cool to be just like her! To have that much style, that much money, all those way cool friends to party with! I want that too!"

Desire and fantasy. They are the mechanisms that drive the consumer society. As such, popular entertainment is equivalent to big budget commercials.

There have been times in pop music history where association with the artist has made a star rise to the top, but as soon as they have "made it" that association is gone.

Case in point: The Rolling Stones. When they first got started (i.e. when they were playing the club scene in England and not putting out records) they were popular largely because they made a sound that resonated with their culture. And then the idol worship started. Sex Pistols probable were popular at first for the same reason. Pink Floyd? They were really the same way for the psychedelic scene. But I've read interviews and articles about their very eary few years that seem to make it clear that the very culture that got them noticed felt abandoned by them when they signed their first label deal. And years later they have the afront to sing, "And did we tell you the name of the game, boy? We call it Riding the Gravy Train." At a time when they were selling out football stadiums.

In my mind the real problem isn't how to take music that is heartfelt, artistic, real (whatever you want to call music made by people who simply love their craft)--how you take this music and create a business model that will allow those musicians to support themselves on it? Respirator in his reply talks about how technology is transforming the old business model for music sales into a more immediate, fluid and hopefully "live" one based around digital distribution and communications. My fear is that this will not present us with any new model for monetary reward but simply transform the music business into the international music hobby.

The thing I've really disliked about recent trends is that we continue to see a devaluation of all arts. Supply and demand. Technology makes quality results easier to produce and more readily available--supply increases--yet the market for music and other arts hasn't really increased. Fixed or slowly increasing demand matched with an explosion of supply means our work becomes devalued in the economy. Now, obviously, true quality goes beyond how good the recording is and true value (as in aesthetic value) is independent of economic worth, but still . . . making a living in any art form has never been easy and things are getting worse.

I used to carry a huge chip on my shoulder about this. I've always had to work in non-art related fields to support my art/music. People at work would find out I have a visual arts degree and try to rope me into "art" projects promoting the latest morale boosting scheme.

I'd say, "Sure, what's it worth to you?"
They'd be like, "What?"
Me: "How much are you willing to pay me?"
Them: "Um . . . nothing. We thought you'd do it for free."
Me: "But if you're not willing to pay anything for it, then it really isn't worth anything to you. So why should I spend my time doing something worthless?"

And they'd grumble about me not being a team player and all that shite.

I'm not like that anymore but take a look at how many "Should SE instruments be free?" posts we get here at KVR. And look at how much support there is here for illegally sharing copyrighted material through P2P programs. These are both excellent examples of how intellectual property has been devalued.

So, in conclusion, I'd just like to say . . . Phew! what a rant! :oops:

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When I get a panicky moment like this, I always find comfort in the fact that Tom Waits has a career in the same business as Britney and Duran Duran. It's not as bad as it seems.
Rakkervoksen

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Everyone here has made very good points, and you've all made me remember why I write in the style of music I do, and why I love the video game genre of music, as well as composers such as Philip Glass and Steve Reich.

The vast majority of video game music composers (not just myself, but people such as Kenji Ito and Dennis Martin) don't try to seem like they're larger than life. In fact, many of them are self-proclaimed amateurs (such as Naoshi Mizuta of Final Fantasy fame). They don't try to hide the fact they're little more than people sitting at their desks in a noisy environment, overworked and tired, struggling to whip out track after track. Even Nobuo Uematsu, Koichi Sugiyama and Koji Kondo, three of the most popular musicians, don't let their popularity get in their way. Koichi Sugiyama is almost 80 years old and he's *still* writing new music.

My point is that making music as a business does not make you any less of a musician, or any less musically inclined than any other musician (in fact, I chose to be a professional musician so I could become better at music, which is the mentality of many composers in my field). When the business part of one's music overshadows their music itself is when it becomes a bad thing. This is the tricky part musicians need to watch out for.

You see, a lot of the population *wants* to believe that Britney Spears, Linkin Park, and even Jack Wall, John Williams and Peter Gabriel are musical gods - for whatever the reason. I don't think 100% of the blame should be on the music industry itself, but rather the people who dish out so much money buying their albums.

I do agree with you, though. There's way too much elitism involved in today's music. Oddly enough, this is part of why I write the music I do.

I'm very young compared to most of you here and you can take what I say for what it's worth, but I hope I made some sense. :)

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Oh, and I wanted to add that being popular doesn't make anyone less of a musician either. Like what I said about the business end of music, if that popularity goes to one's head, it's a bad thing.

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I also wanted to add that I do agree with you, there's too much superficiality in *all* entertainment industries except theater and orchestra, and many orchestras are so high and mighty that it makes me sick. But I think in order for this superficiality to go away, the people first must be willing to accept reality as it is, and I don't believe they are willing yet.

People don't want to see Martha from down the street getting a music career, because it reminds them too much of their boring, possibly overall crappy lives.

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Hink wrote:But my point is more about being able to relate to music these days. I can't relate to the stones anymore...I mean I can't even fathom what their lives must be like...ozzy too...I think the recording industry is missing out on a huge market place here...though today's country may fill some of that void. I do notice that people in my area my age, if they have a newer cd it's usually today's country.
I was about 14 when I gave up on the music industry. Being a teen in the 70s--having to survive the soft-rock, the muzak-pop, the disco, and all the rest of that stuff that filled the airwaves--got me seeking refuge in music that people my age were not listening to... like jazz and classical and experimental and even Johnny Cash (waaaaaay ahead of the curve on that one. Everybody else my age thought I was crazy).

Anyway, I guess I've never put much stock at all in what the mainstream industry promotes. Some of it's good. A lot of it is crap. My tastes just sort of go whatever way they will. I'm 48, but I wouldn't say that my tastes have stultified. I'm going through a period right now where I'm listening to some of the more experimental electronica. A year ago, I was listening to a lot of Appalachian mountain music. Maybe next year I'll be listening to cubano polyrhythms. Who knows what the next obsession will be?

And I like it that way.

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what a great topic!

RonC

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It's easy being a late 30's (yes closer to 40 something) and lamentable over the state of current chart music.
Realisticly though the actual no. of chart sales you need to chart these days is considerably less than several years ago.
I still do NOT think the charts are a great indication of what's out there either.
Or what people are listenign too.
Realisticly you may need say 300,000 singles sale to chart at #1 in the USA for example.
300,000 is really a ridiculously low % of the overall population.
In other words on a per populace quota ALOT of people are not buying it.

I mean we still have artists like

Bjork
Goldfrapp
SigourRos
RadioHead
Flanger
Muse
A perfect Circle
Tool
Tortoise
Arovane
Monolake
MuM
MouseOnMars
Autechre
Chris Vrenna
Prefuse
MuziQ
lamb
Oval
MassiveAttack
Outkast
Gorillaz
The Roots
etc etc out there.

And lots of good house , jungle , ragga , dub , dance and indie rock artists too boot.
Really too many to mention in a list.
If anything my tastes have purely become more discerning and selective with age.
I love alot of avante garde electronica that is comming of Europe and Japan at the moment.
There is still a hell of alot of great blues and jazz/acidjazz/lounge and jazz fusion releases floating around also.
Infact the only area of music I see particularly lacking bar top 40 pap is the modern classical arena which hasn't produced anyone who's blown me away in quite a while.
If you're looking to the charts for a musical guiding light then you are quite frankly looking in the wrong place.
There is ALOT of really passionate and moving music out there .
You just have to be prepared too look for it.
I seriously doubt we'll ever see another supergroup or truly mindblowing album release from the major's again.
It's all safe bets , corporate laquered crap that really says nothing about my life and anyone elses for that matter.
Two of my favourite album releases lately have been

1.Arovane - Lillies (his best album and he's chucked in the towel) :(

2.David Sylvian - The Good Son vs The Only Daughter (which is quite possibly the BEST interpretive self commisioned remix album I've ever heard).
The reworking of "Fire in the Forest" alone is worth the asking price.

Though I must confess I have been back tracking CD copies of all the old 4AD Records recording artists lately ie:This Mortal Coil , Cocteau Twins etc etc.

We will definately begin to see neiche markets developing due too the disemination of information via the world wide web.
That is purely a matter of time.
Age doesn't really taint my musical persepctive IMHO.
I just think I've been spoilt with some simply briliiant recordings and artist releases over the last 40 years.
Which inevitably makes it harder for me to be moved.
That said I know quality and passion when I hear it.
And yes I still hear it in modern releases.
Most of these releases just aren't celebrated commercial hits.
That's all.

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FaX wrote: That said I know quality and passion when I hear it.
And yes I still hear it in modern releases.
Most of these releases just aren't celebrated commercial hits.
That's all.
Yup.

Now listen to some shpongle, for christ sakes.

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the_nihilist wrote:
FaX wrote: That said I know quality and passion when I hear it.
And yes I still hear it in modern releases.
Most of these releases just aren't celebrated commercial hits.
That's all.
Yup.

Now listen to some shpongle, for christ sakes.
That pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. :P

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Fame, musical talent and money used to go hand in hand when we were all "just listening" to music.

But since the era of MTV, shock marketing and all the "add on" merchandising that goes on (big part of the music biz) we no longer "just listening to music", we "see it", "read about it" and "wear it", so the performers "other talents" became an important selling factor.
Things like "looks", "sex appeal" ,"dancing capabilities" and the ability to be "controversial".
.....and yes sometimes these "new talents" are more important then the basic "traditional ones".

Of course all this sucks for us old timers who just want to listen to music without all the circus arround it.

But there is still good music being made every day.
It's just harder to find.
And sometimes you find it the subway station as oppose to the record store.
Yeah, the world is not fair but I already learned that long time ago.

:wink:

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