Sonalksis TBK

[eduardo_b]

Remember, people were toying around with the freebie which turned into a $20 donationware, and discussing its quality. I can't recall a single KVRian saying they'd even consider buying the 10-band version.

This wasn't my impression, but maybe I read more into the positive comments than was justified. And, if that's the case, is KVR not the place for this developer?

[eduardo_b]

Here @ KvR I read way too often how people want to tell developers what they "have" to do.

When customers are telling developers what they want, a smart developer will listen closely. The successful ones combine their talents with what customers are asking for or saying they want.

For my value perception TBK is too expensive. I wouldn't want it as freeware. Because I don't like the concept. I've got enough good filters with better concepts and some of them do sound exceptionally good. There has to be way more than what TBK does to get me to pay $200 for a filter. And I've got no prob with anybody who buys it and love it above any other filter out there.

It's telling when someone says even if it were free they wouldn't find a use for it. I think that sums up the problem. Developers sometimes become too optimistic or too attached to their products and believe them more valuable than they are.
I really don't think KVR people are unwilling to pay, but with so many products and only so many dollars (or euros), it takes a lot for them to part with their money. As it should. Other than sequencers, I can't think of single plug-in that should cost more than $200, and it would have to be amazing. I'm increasingly less amazed as more and more plugs show up in the announcements on the KVR home page.

[diverdee]

If you perceive something as being too expensive - don't buy it, simple as.
When enough people don't buy something in a market as saturated as this prices should (hopefully) drop.
There are a few things that i've been interested in - but the price has put me off, not all from 'huge name' developers also.

[Foxglove]

The whole golden ear thing has been a distorted assumption that a select few are able to judge what others simply miss. It's presumptuous to take as true the assertion that there is always a discernible difference, that it matters and that to not care is to not appreciate quality sound. More like golden crap.

I guess this part pretty much reflects what I tried to say. Why does it always have to be either/or, the most extreme choices?

In our case... I'm not saying that more expensive is always better and that there is always a discernible difference. What I'm questioning is that why the opposite is any more true? It certainly seems more appreciated or supported here.

I simply see a generalisation, nothing more. A generalisation that is backed up collectively by beliefs, assumptions and "yeah that must be it" reasoning. Why else would the general consensus be that "pros use Macs" still is the one and only truth along "pros use ProTools", exactly similar to "pros buy expensive things because they've just heard someone else say they're great", "pros buy over-expensive crap and then defend their investments fiercely because they're not men enough to admit they made a mistake".

In other words, I still don't get why paying $1000 for an EQ is stupid, if the purchaser is able to draw his own conclusions about its quality based on hearing and testing what it does. Why isn't it even a possibility that somebody is able to hear a difference, appreciate it, and able to spend such an amount of money without feeling guilt for doing so and thus needing reinforcement from say online forums, in the form of other people telling it was a good investment?

In any case, I don't think I'm getting anything across...

(Which means, I wouldn't mind on my current budget if everything was cheap, but I don't feel the need to claim everybody who can afford more expensive stuff is stupid if they do purchase such items... and I do think that the particular 1000 dollar EQ is the best EQ plugin I've encountered, in what it does, whereas I've never said that everything else will result in crap sounding music, and coincidentally no-one else has said it either.)

JMH

I agree with you 100% JMH. Especially when we fall into the audiophile categories. In the last issue of Stereophile (I think that's the name), there was an in-depth review of a cable, yes a cable, to connect you speakers to your power-amp. It uses a vaccum seal to secure the connection...


...the price...


...$10,000 for the first meter, and something like $5000-$7000 for each additional meter. Remember, you have TWO speakers, so lets say a modest 2 meters per speaker, which adds up to at least $30,000. They concluded that they sounded better on most material, compared to the reviewer's cable that he uses, that only cost about $5000 per meter.

Probably the most extreme example I can think of. They were researched for 8 years. And I'm sure to the audiophiles out there that have that kind of money to spend, they're going to be worth every penny.

[eduardo_b]

In the last issue of Stereophile (I think that's the name), there was an in-depth review of a cable, yes a cable, to connect you speakers to your power-amp. It uses a vaccum seal to secure the connection...


...the price...


...$10,000 for the first meter, and something like $5000-$7000 for each additional meter. Remember, you have TWO speakers, so lets say a modest 2 meters per speaker, which adds up to at least $30,000. They concluded that they sounded better on most material, compared to the reviewer's cable that he uses, that only cost about $5000 per meter.

Probably the most extreme example I can think of. They were researched for 8 years. And I'm sure to the audiophiles out there that have that kind of money to spend, they're going to be worth every penny.

Ah, yes, the utterly ridiculous speaker cable business -- probably the most bizarre yet contentious audiophile category of all, and living proof that a fool and his money are soon parted. This category puts $1000 EQs to shame. Interestingly enough, despite many A/B tests demonstrating that the claims of speaker cable companies simply don't have any audible basis, enthusiasts not only spend unbelievable amounts of money per meter, but then assiduously defend their choice and boast of the most incredible improvements in imaging, presence and depth.

This was precisely the example I had in mind when noting that price per se is a meaningless measure of quality in plug-ins. And listening can be so subjective that personal taste, not objective measurement, is the only consistent thing about evaluating effects, and synths for that matter. I suppose a $200 filter might seem like throw-away money compared to a $1000 eq in the larger picture. I think the $98 Kjaerhus eq I have will be just fine.

[fritzman]

Hi eduardo,

money is not the best measure for quality. Often it doesn't work. A few examples from my VSTplugins folder:

I love and use TLs Maximizer. I tested it extensively against L1, L2, Elephant, etc. It's simply better. For me. Freeware.

I love and use PLParEQ. I tested it against ElectriQ which was my favourite EQ until then (I still use it for tracking and certain sounds). I wanted PLParEQ to "loose" the comparison back then. Really. Yes, I was strongly biased towards ElectriQ. It took me half an hour to accept what my ears told me: I like PLParEQ's sound more in most situations! I was shocked. Well, here we go ... $1000.

You see, money and value are two things. Sometimes it works good, sometimes not. For various reasons.


Best wishes, FRitz

[jmh]

I just knew that the audiophiles would appear sooner or later as an example...

At it serves my point in the most excellent way. I've said it a couple of times already, but here goes again... Why does it have to be about the most extreme choices every time? Why does this example of $5000 a pop cables mean that because there's psychological and other factors at play, it's (again) impossible for a $100 cable to be better than a $50 one?

While I still feel similarly to most people in here when it comes to audiophiles (and will lump hifi enthusiasts and 'high endists' into the same bunch, even though the hifi folks try to separate themselves from high end people with similar criteria we use to rate them as idiots with too much money to spend), it really doesn't work as an example for either party in this discussion.

I agree 100% with the sentiment that price per se is a meaningless measure of quality. It's just that I don't agree at all with the principle that everything costly is a ripoff and that there's always a cheaper better option available.

To put it shorter (hey, a good night's sleep does wonders!), it's not a black/white issue. It just doesn't make any sense (apart from of course continuous savings) to think that everything expensive is always a ripoff.

Of course I'm thinking about this all in a bigger sense than just plugins or software. But then again, that's what principles are. It's the principle (or rather, this opinion slowly becoming a principle) I'm against.

This wasn't my impression, but maybe I read more into the positive comments than was justified. And, if that's the case, is KVR not the place for this developer?

Oh, KVR is a place for every VST developer. Even those german ones who have severe difficulties communicating with people In this case, both parties benefitted from it. We got an amazing EQ first for free, now for peanuts. The developer got a lot of testers for his products. In my eyes, it's a win/win situation, even when one of results is a $1000 EQ

JMH

[RapRogue]

no, I WIN!

[whyterabbyt]

When customers are telling developers what they want, a smart developer will listen closely. The successful ones combine their talents with what customers are asking for or saying they want.

Its actually probably more like 'when lots of customers tell a developer they want the same sort of things, a smart developer will listen closely'. When its only individual customers telling that developer they want very specific things, the developer is probably less inclined to. The successful ones combine their talents with what large enough numbers of their customers are asking for or saying they want, as long as it can be achieved relatively easily and still fits with the developer's original concept of the code.

[eduardo_b]

I just knew that the audiophiles would appear sooner or later as an example...I agree 100% with the sentiment that price per se is a meaningless measure of quality. It's just that I don't agree at all with the principle that everything costly is a ripoff and that there's always a cheaper better option available.

I don't think we disagree on the concept that more expensive isn't a ripoff in and of itself, but we do disagree on the relevance of added value for the significantly higher price.

It's like Rolex watches. A $3500 watch does not keep better time than one selling for a tenth of this, or even half of that amount. That's not why people spend an absurd amount of money on these watches. But they believe at some level that they are getting a watch that is a more precise, better-engineered timepiece.

Of course, an effect is more subjective because there is simply no defined standard for "transparency," and the value for this perceived quality is almost certainly subjective. Pricing it at $1000 is either a capricious whim or an attempt to separate the plug from others in the marketplace and maybe give it a Rolex spin. Does that make it a ripoff? One could easily come to that conclusion. Show me the cost accounting.

Oh, KVR is a place for every VST developer. Even those german ones who have severe difficulties communicating with people In this case, both parties benefited from it. We got an amazing EQ first for free, now for peanuts. The developer got a lot of testers for his products. In my eyes, it's a win/win situation, even when one of results is a $1000 EQ

The developer may have benefited in terms of user feedback, but I'd be interested in knowing how many of these he sells at this price. He's in, or even above, Waves, Oxford and others territory. And they have professional reps that he doesn't or at least doesn't appear to have.

[pitchdrifter]

Actually yea there is a defined standard for transparency in an EQ, you see how much an EQ alters surrounding frequencines on spectrum anaylzers/oscilloscopes. Nor are professional audio tools (which are not the same as hifi nutter placebos) luxury/consumer goods, even when they might be just that for a consumer or prosumer who nonetheless doesn't get money from using these tools, that's not the target audience they're developed for.
It's as if gun enthusiasts would whine about how expensive battleships are and how loads more could be sold if they'd be sold just a little cheaper. If a product doesn't fit your needs, don't buy it, but there's little point complaining about it. And it's not like there aren't other products doing the same thing, even if not in exactly the same way. Quite a few people commented the difference isn't audible anyway, so what's the problem?

[eduardo_b]

Actually yea there is a defined standard for transparency in an EQ, you see how much an EQ alters surrounding frequencines on spectrum anaylzers/oscilloscopes...Quite a few people commented the difference isn't audible anyway, so what's the problem?

I am not questioning that there may be visual differences on a scope, but that says nothing about whether there are audible differences. It's like with total harmonic distortion. The human ear actually lives quite well with values that would be considered non-hi fi by the numbers.

No problem. Problem free. Problemless.

[pitchdrifter]

[martian]

well i finally tried this plugin.

i find all settings sound pretty weak, yet 'rude' sounds like it destroys sound, and not in a good way.

anyway seriously puzzled by this filter or lack of.

fabfilter and ohm force are still by far the best to me.

[bmanic]

I think sonalksis might notice quite soon that their filter isn't that popular simply by looking at the lack of responses on their forum. When their eq and compressor was released there was a flood of "awesome!" posts, now there's been like 4 posts in one week and only one of them is a thumbs up one.

I'm still keeping my hopes up with this company. The gate plugin, if at the same quality as the compressor, could be extremely useful.

Cheers!
bManic