KVR Audio

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:15 pm

opia wrote: I honestly do not believe that vegetarianism = a healthier life

Technically, it can be a healthier diet.

Wopelka · Post by **Wopelka** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:15 pm

stefancrs wrote:
Seus Hawkins wrote:
stefancrs wrote:Isn't _everything_ we (humans) do totally natural?

And, for that matter, not everyone believes in free will. I for one don't
Move to HPC, shall we?
Hi again Stefan.

One could argue that that is correct, given that one is determinalistic. If you don't think you have any influence on your actions, I suppose I wouldn't know how to counter your position at the given time. (I'd have to look for counter deterministic arguments)

Regards
The whole idea of "influence" gets kinda fugged up when you think everything that happens happens due to something else

And, even if the arguments against determinism would "win", the arguments for free will are way too weak to have any impact on my take on the subject

i haven't chosen to believe in free will, then

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:17 pm

But meanwhile can the vegangelism go to another thread please.

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:21 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:But meanwhile can the vegangelism go to another thread please.

Well, we had a good eight or so pages that kept to the titular subject.

Perhaps a record for a non-company forum here.

Cool neologism, BTW.

respirator · Post by **respirator** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:26 pm

Ah!

I'm a musician because I need an outlet for the despair I feel when anyone who think irrational believes, whether they're vegitarianism, religion (or the - not - clever disguise: Intellegent Design), shamanism, astrology, you-name-it, insists that their irrational believes should have any influence what so ever outside the personal sphere.

itsplayed · Post by **itsplayed** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:39 pm

Seus Hawkins wrote:Many animals cannot survive without meat, their stomachs are made for meat.
Regards

...And a humans stomach isn't? Human's are not natural meat eaters? Have you had a close look at your incisors lately? What about Vitamin B12? A substance that is only found in meat. Without vitamin B12 you can expect to eventually get anaemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage.....Sounds to me like our stomachs (our bodies) are made for meat as well....I feel a song coming on, I think I'll call it "Meat Eaters"!

Seus Hawkins · Post by **Seus Hawkins** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:54 pm

No. As I said, humans nature(if we have one) is irrelevant(if you believe in free will) if you don't, humans can easily live solely off plantfood, and healthier than meat eaters. Less cholesterol, no salmonella, no saturated fat etc.
B12 doesn't originate from animals, b12 originates from bacteria...the only reason why we get less of that is because we clean our food. Animals eats plenty of bacteria rich foods and when we eat them we get their b12. So really, we can either avoid cleaning our food(as we naturally(if one is determinalistic) would, living in primitive societies, or take a b12 supplement. Many meat eaters lack b12 as well, even though they tend to get much more of it.

Regards

itsplayed · Post by **itsplayed** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:59 pm

Healthier? Surprising as it may seem, some prior studies have shown the annual all-causedeath rate of vegetarian men to be slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (0.93% vs 0.89%). Similarly, the annual all-cause death rate of vegetarian women was shown to be significantly higher than that of non-vegetarian women (0.86% vs 0.54%). (40)

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:02 pm

itsplayed wrote: What about Vitamin B12? A substance that is only found in meat. Without vitamin B12 you can expect to eventually get anaemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage.....

If people are going to continue this pointless debate over diet, can they please learn some facts.

B12 is not 'only found in meat'. It is found in cheese and eggs. For vegans, it can be found in many foodstuffs such as yeast extract, miso, tempeh, and the like, as well as seaweeds. It is even created by microorganisms in the human gut.

Furthermore, the body stores B12 for years, so B12 deficincies are very rare. It should not occur in someone with a well-balanced diet, whether that person is omniverous, vegetarian, or vegan.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:06 pm

itsplayed wrote:Healthier? Surprising as it may seem, some prior studies have shown the annual all-causedeath rate of vegetarian men to be slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (0.93% vs 0.89%). Similarly, the annual all-cause death rate of vegetarian women was shown to be significantly higher than that of non-vegetarian women (0.86% vs 0.54%). (40)

And other studies show the opposite. You're being selective in your 'evidence'. In the meantime, take it to another thread please.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:07 pm

Seus Hawkins wrote:No. As I said, humans nature(if we have one) is irrelevant(if you believe in free will) if you don't, humans can easily live solely off plantfood, and healthier than meat eaters. Less cholesterol, no salmonella, no saturated fat etc.
B12 doesn't originate from animals, b12 originates from bacteria...the only reason why we get less of that is because we clean our food. Animals eats plenty of bacteria rich foods and when we eat them we get their b12. So really, we can either avoid cleaning our food(as we naturally(if one is determinalistic) would, living in primitive societies, or take a b12 supplement. Many meat eaters lack b12 as well, even though they tend to get much more of it.

Regards

Please debate this in a new thread.

Seus Hawkins · Post by **Seus Hawkins** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:10 pm

What is the source? I'd like to know more about the subject if possible.
The method, how many people involved, ages etc.
My source to the statistics written is from Becoming vegan, primarily done by adventists to ensure that adventists are healthy. Becoming vegan's writers are registered dietitians(meaning an education on health(not focused on veganism/vegetarianism). But generally health...with the aim of optimal health.

Regards

Wopelka · Post by **Wopelka** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:11 pm

FFS! move this discussion in another thread!

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:13 pm

Seus Hawkins wrote:What is the source? I'd like to know more about the subject if possible.
The method, how many people involved, ages etc.
My source to the statistics written is from Becoming vegan, primarily done by adventists to ensure that adventists are healthy. Becoming vegan's writers are registered dietitians(meaning an education on health(not focused on veganism/vegetarianism). But generally health...with the aim of optimal health.

Regards

What's your damage? If you want to go into this in detail, start A DIFFERENT THREAD.

itsplayed · Post by **itsplayed** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:13 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:

And other studies show the opposite. You're being selective in your 'evidence'. In the meantime, take it to another thread please.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, stating selective evidence as fact. Your right this discussion doesn't belong here...over and out!

Why are you a musician?