VSTis as good as hardware? Similar to Access Virus Quality?

[snooky]

hey guys, kritikon, that sounds awesome !

Thanks for all your help guys, I'll take all additional info into account and try recreate the sound today. I actually got a lot closer last night by using a little FM and sweeping the cutoff.

Cheers
Fots

that's exactly yhe deal!

just a touch of FM and a highpass/bandpass flter with some resonance!

[snooky]

Just get out of fantasyland. Virus h/w has nothing to do with the sound of a Virus. Also Virus filters aren't anything close to classics. MS10, MS20, MS50, CS30, CS40, CS40m, CS70, CS80, OSCar, Jupiter6, Jupiter8, Roland202, Roland303, Pro-One, Pro-V, Enigiser, Matrix, VCS3, SEM...I could go on for a long time - those are simply the regular ones I've either owned or had access to in the past that I'd rather have than any version of a crappy Virus and day. That list doesn't contain a single one of the wonderful old and modern modulars that get even better, and can be routed and re-routed all over the place to make the filters do things a Virus can't even imagine.

Sorry, but that's whole bunch of silliness right there...

The Virus filters are drop dead gorgeous. You can niggle on a lot of stuff when it comes to the Virus, but not the filters.

and why is that?

do you know anything about filters?

have you used a real analog and compared it to any VA, even the virus?

there's a difference - altho what one might prefer is another thing!

[fgimian]

I am posting a snip demonstrating a simple arp from a virus. Can anyone here recreate this sound with a VSTI and post the results? I've been unsuccessful to date. I have come the closest with Zero Vector but still a little weak.

I just picked this particular sound because it's nice and punchy and shows a little about the quality of the filters.

Good luck and remember to post those results!:shock:

ftp://godgiventalentonline.com/public_html/music/

Correction to this link...

http://www.godgiventalentonline.com/music/

just about to listen
Fots

[fgimian]

Me likes !!! And yes I can definitely hear a great character with this filter indeed, the envelopes are incredibly quick ! And it almost sounds like a 12 db / oct filter there since I hear quite a bit of the highs come in as you sweep upwards.

I will attempt to replicate but I doubt I can do it, this is indeed what sets the Virus apart for me, this sounds like a synth in a commercial track.

I also know what snooky is referring to, analogue filters do have a very different character, but the more I use synths, I actually prefer some of the digital characteristics better personally (no offence to anyone). I think a very well modelled analogue filter is the Minimonsta and impOscar.

Fots

[pepelogu]

Just get out of fantasyland. Virus h/w has nothing to do with the sound of a Virus. Also Virus filters aren't anything close to classics. MS10, MS20, MS50, CS30, CS40, CS40m, CS70, CS80, OSCar, Jupiter6, Jupiter8, Roland202, Roland303, Pro-One, Pro-V, Enigiser, Matrix, VCS3, SEM...I could go on for a long time - those are simply the regular ones I've either owned or had access to in the past that I'd rather have than any version of a crappy Virus and day. That list doesn't contain a single one of the wonderful old and modern modulars that get even better, and can be routed and re-routed all over the place to make the filters do things a Virus can't even imagine.

Sorry, but that's whole bunch of silliness right there...

The Virus filters are drop dead gorgeous. You can niggle on a lot of stuff when it comes to the Virus, but not the filters.

and why is that?

do you know anything about filters?

have you used a real analog and compared it to any VA, even the virus?

there's a difference - altho what one might prefer is another thing!

I *have* used a few real analogs; Junos, Evolver, JX3P, Minimoog etc. and yes i agree, they sound different from the Virus, in fact, they all sound different from each other. I've never said the Virus sounds the same. What I do say is that the Viruses filters are just as good and in many cases better than analog filters. They have a certain sound to them that I and a huge number of other people simply love.

The Virus is just about the only synth that I can sit around for hours (literally), just tweaking the filters on a arpeggio-line.

Now, tell me what you know...

[snooky]

Just get out of fantasyland. Virus h/w has nothing to do with the sound of a Virus. Also Virus filters aren't anything close to classics. MS10, MS20, MS50, CS30, CS40, CS40m, CS70, CS80, OSCar, Jupiter6, Jupiter8, Roland202, Roland303, Pro-One, Pro-V, Enigiser, Matrix, VCS3, SEM...I could go on for a long time - those are simply the regular ones I've either owned or had access to in the past that I'd rather have than any version of a crappy Virus and day. That list doesn't contain a single one of the wonderful old and modern modulars that get even better, and can be routed and re-routed all over the place to make the filters do things a Virus can't even imagine.

Sorry, but that's whole bunch of silliness right there...

The Virus filters are drop dead gorgeous. You can niggle on a lot of stuff when it comes to the Virus, but not the filters.

and why is that?

do you know anything about filters?

have you used a real analog and compared it to any VA, even the virus?

there's a difference - altho what one might prefer is another thing!

I *have* used a few real analogs; Junos, Evolver, JX3P, Minimoog etc. and yes i agree, they sound different from the Virus, in fact, they all sound different from each other. I've never said the Virus sounds the same. What I do say is that the Viruses filters are just as good and in many cases better than analog filters. They have a certain sound to them that I and a huge number of other people simply love.

The Virus is just about the only synth that I can sit around for hours (literally), just tweaking the filters on a arpeggio-line.

Now, tell me what you know...

I know quite a bit about digital audio, and analogue synths. Among others I have played moogs (the voyager is the most memorable) and the Seq circuits prophet 5, the Juno6 and some KORG synth I can't remember it's name... I own a cheeky CS10 and the godawful (but also cheeky) mam MB33mkII analoge synths...now, the virus sounds awesome but it's not the filters that make the sound - they are quite weak and hollow sounding, but it's the saturation in the filters and the wavetables themselfs that makes such a good combination.

Compared to modern vst's, the virus has quite dated technology inside it, still it's the sum of the parts - not the strange sounding filters alone, that make the sound so "phat" - as you kids say...

[pepelogu]

Just get out of fantasyland. Virus h/w has nothing to do with the sound of a Virus. Also Virus filters aren't anything close to classics. MS10, MS20, MS50, CS30, CS40, CS40m, CS70, CS80, OSCar, Jupiter6, Jupiter8, Roland202, Roland303, Pro-One, Pro-V, Enigiser, Matrix, VCS3, SEM...I could go on for a long time - those are simply the regular ones I've either owned or had access to in the past that I'd rather have than any version of a crappy Virus and day. That list doesn't contain a single one of the wonderful old and modern modulars that get even better, and can be routed and re-routed all over the place to make the filters do things a Virus can't even imagine.

Sorry, but that's whole bunch of silliness right there...

The Virus filters are drop dead gorgeous. You can niggle on a lot of stuff when it comes to the Virus, but not the filters.

and why is that?

do you know anything about filters?

have you used a real analog and compared it to any VA, even the virus?

there's a difference - altho what one might prefer is another thing!

I *have* used a few real analogs; Junos, Evolver, JX3P, Minimoog etc. and yes i agree, they sound different from the Virus, in fact, they all sound different from each other. I've never said the Virus sounds the same. What I do say is that the Viruses filters are just as good and in many cases better than analog filters. They have a certain sound to them that I and a huge number of other people simply love.

The Virus is just about the only synth that I can sit around for hours (literally), just tweaking the filters on a arpeggio-line.

Now, tell me what you know...

I know quite a bit about digital audio, and analogue synths. Among others I have played moogs (the voyager is the most memorable) and the Seq circuits prophet 5, the Juno6 and some KORG synth I can't remember it's name... I own a cheeky CS10 and the godawful (but also cheeky) mam MB33mkII analoge synths...now, the virus sounds awesome but it's not the filters that make the sound - they are quite weak and hollow sounding, but it's the saturation in the filters and the wavetables themselfs that makes such a good combination.

Compared to modern vst's, the virus has quite dated technology inside it, still it's the sum of the parts - not the strange sounding filters alone, that make the sound so "phat" - as you kids say...

Well, I agree that the saturation adds a bit of grunge to the sound, but that's just a small part of it I think.
What gives the Virus such a warm, full sound is the filters. Try routing one of your analogs through it and you'll see (or hear).

...and thanks for calling me a kid. i haven't heard that in a few years, I just turned 35...

[snooky]

and I have routed alot of things thru the virus C filters - and no I don't think it sounds better or "warm" or whatever - just different.

add saturation and it's a whole new thing.

[tony tony chopper]

Good luck and remember to post those results!

you could maybe post the score for it

[fgimian]

I'd love to hear some sound samples of these analog synths since you guys have access to them. I personally have only ever played 1 analogue synth, a Roland (something), not sure of the model. The filters sounded indentical to the Minimonsta

Fots

[kritikon]

I'd love to hear some sound samples of these analog synths since you guys have access to them. I personally have only ever played 1 analogue synth, a Roland (something), not sure of the model. The filters sounded indentical to the Minimonsta

Well, the average Roland synth wasn't that drop dead gorgeous really...in fact Roland became famous more because they were one of the first to release budget synths. And affordable in those days didn't equate with good quality usually. Most likely you would have played with a Roland Juno of some sort, or possibly a JX3p. The Junos are pretty bad IMO. Even I rather use various VSTi than my Juno106. My AlphaJuno is a lot more flexible, but still mostly very ordinary - not really worth getting out of storage and dusting off. The analogue Junos (rather than the digital/analogue hybrids) were a little richer sounding, but still pretty ordinary. I use PolyIblit and FreeAlpha quite happily as replacements for those synths (which I still own, by the way). The JX3p was definitely alot richer, and had a lovely osc sync, but it was still pretty frugal in terms of features co mpared to most VSTi of today. I think I'd rather have my JX3p back than many of the run-of-the-mill VSTi VAs of today though. The JX8s and 10s were just bigger flashier versions of the 3 really - same sound character but more grunt under the lid. The 101s/202s had alot more character, but obviously were one-trick ponies to a degree. 303s likewise. Then you get to the Jupiters...well...lots more character. Even the digital hybrid JP6 sounded very lush. And then you go back to the SHs...some good and some again were very very limited, although retained a bit more character simply because of their pure analogue pathways.

So you see...you have to compare like to like. Junos aren't a good synth to compare with the best of VSTi, because Junos are (sorry...there's no other word for it...) crap. The filters are horrible in self-oscillation and the only part of the spectrum where they have any character is low-mids -> mids. And they're pitifully poor in terms of choice of envelopes and oscillaotrs etc (there is only one envelope and one very sparsely featured LFO). Once you get up to 1KHz or so, they may as well be Synthedit filters IMO.

MP3s.

Sorry...not worth the bother for me. Might be of benefit to you, but not to me. To hear the difference in MP3 between a decent analogue and an equivalent VSTi would take a long time, because a) there are alot of similarities in some sounds...
b) there are alot of differences to go through.

If you really want to hear the difference, the best way is to go to a shop, or arrange to demo a 2nd hand private sale of a decent analogue. Look for decent ones though. Jupiters, ProVs, OSCars, the higher Yamaha CS range, MS10/20s, and some of the new ones such as Voyagers, Andromedas, Evolvers etc - then check out some of the modular setups (although there probably won't be too many local dealers who have any... ) And take with you a recording of some solo synth lines from some VSTi to compare.

Personally, I don't think you'll hear too much quality difference between the recordings of things like impOSCar, Oddity, Minimonsta, etc...but when you compare the real ones with Synthedit stuff, and your typical bog-standard VA...you will hear the difference.

Another good tip is to go to a store that sells analogues, and compare one directly up against a VA h/w synth such as Ion, Virus etc. Several of you might be surprised when you hear your precious Virus up against it.

Now, tell me what you know...

I think I'll have to cut it real short. Possibly the best way is to list the analogues and digital synths I've either owned or had regular access to, shall I?

MS10
MS20
Polysix
MonoPoly
DW8000
EX600
Juno106
Juno6
Juno60
JX3p
JX10
Jupiter6
MC202
SH101
TB303
AlphaJuno1
SH1000
SH09
System100
Oddysey
Solina
Rogue
MiniMoog
Prodigy
Jupiter4
OBX
OBXa
OB8
Obie 4 voice
OSCar
ProOne
ProV
3C Moog modular
Serge modular
Wasp
Kitten
JenSX1000
CS05
CS10
CS40m
DX27
DX100
Wavestation
01/W
SY99
JD800
D660
D50
M1
Several PSR keyboards (no idea why I bought those...
)
Prophecy
Triton
W30
K1000
K2500
Ion
JP8000
MS2000

There are quite a few that aren't on that list that I sorely wish I had owned or had access to, but it just isn't (yet) to be. That's not a brag...I know and knew a few people who put that little list into shadow with some of the monsters they had. It's just to show that I do actually know what analogue and digital synths sound like. Not from MP3s and reviews. Not from 2nd hand knowledge. I feel pretty certain there are one or two within KvR that can easily top that list with their own personal experience of h/w synths from the past (as you can see...my list is pitifully poor in terms of digital 80s/90s synths too...) But nevertheless I've played around with enough of them to know what their weaknesses and strengths are.

Viruses are OK. They are NOT special. But many like their particular character...good for them. It's all subjective anyway. When you've messed around with a C3 Moog with 9 oscillators and the full list of modules, and a Serge or a VC3 etc, then I'll listen when you tell me a Virus is such a wonderful thing.





Oh...I'd also like to add: Out of all that lot, I still like to use some particular VSTi, both for sound and usefulness etc. Software most definitely has its place - I'd happily replace several of those analogue synths with some VSTi...in fact I have done already.

[pepelogu]

I think I'll have to cut it real short. Possibly the best way is to list the analogues and digital synths I've either owned or had regular access to, shall I?

MS10
MS20
Polysix
MonoPoly
DW8000
EX600
Juno106
Juno6
Juno60
JX3p
JX10
Jupiter6
MC202
SH101
TB303
AlphaJuno1
SH1000
SH09
System100
Oddysey
Solina
Rogue
MiniMoog
Prodigy
Jupiter4
OBX
OBXa
OB8
Obie 4 voice
OSCar
ProOne
ProV
3C Moog modular
Serge modular
Wasp
Kitten
JenSX1000
CS05
CS10
CS40m
DX27
DX100
Wavestation
01/W
SY99
JD800
D660
D50
M1
Several PSR keyboards (no idea why I bought those...
)
Prophecy
Triton
W30
K1000
K2500
Ion
JP8000
MS2000

Wow, you have owned that many synths yet no Virus? It's obvious you have a personal grudge against Access...

[oblagon]

I'd love to hear some sound samples of these analog synths since you guys have access to them. I personally have only ever played 1 analogue synth, a Roland (something), not sure of the model. The filters sounded indentical to the Minimonsta

Well, the average Roland synth wasn't that drop dead gorgeous really...in fact Roland became famous more because they were one of the first to release budget synths. And affordable in those days didn't equate with good quality usually. Most likely you would have played with a Roland Juno of some sort, or possibly a JX3p. The Junos are pretty bad IMO. Even I rather use various VSTi than my Juno106. My AlphaJuno is a lot more flexible, but still mostly very ordinary - not really worth getting out of storage and dusting off. The analogue Junos (rather than the digital/analogue hybrids) were a little richer sounding, but still pretty ordinary. I use PolyIblit and FreeAlpha quite happily as replacements for those synths (which I still own, by the way). The JX3p was definitely alot richer, and had a lovely osc sync, but it was still pretty frugal in terms of features co mpared to most VSTi of today. I think I'd rather have my JX3p back than many of the run-of-the-mill VSTi VAs of today though. The JX8s and 10s were just bigger flashier versions of the 3 really - same sound character but more grunt under the lid. The 101s/202s had alot more character, but obviously were one-trick ponies to a degree. 303s likewise. Then you get to the Jupiters...well...lots more character. Even the digital hybrid JP6 sounded very lush. And then you go back to the SHs...some good and some again were very very limited, although retained a bit more character simply because of their pure analogue pathways.

So you see...you have to compare like to like. Junos aren't a good synth to compare with the best of VSTi, because Junos are (sorry...there's no other word for it...) crap. The filters are horrible in self-oscillation and the only part of the spectrum where they have any character is low-mids -> mids. And they're pitifully poor in terms of choice of envelopes and oscillaotrs etc (there is only one envelope and one very sparsely featured LFO). Once you get up to 1KHz or so, they may as well be Synthedit filters IMO.

MP3s.

Sorry...not worth the bother for me. Might be of benefit to you, but not to me. To hear the difference in MP3 between a decent analogue and an equivalent VSTi would take a long time, because a) there are alot of similarities in some sounds...
b) there are alot of differences to go through.

If you really want to hear the difference, the best way is to go to a shop, or arrange to demo a 2nd hand private sale of a decent analogue. Look for decent ones though. Jupiters, ProVs, OSCars, the higher Yamaha CS range, MS10/20s, and some of the new ones such as Voyagers, Andromedas, Evolvers etc - then check out some of the modular setups (although there probably won't be too many local dealers who have any... ) And take with you a recording of some solo synth lines from some VSTi to compare.

Personally, I don't think you'll hear too much quality difference between the recordings of things like impOSCar, Oddity, Minimonsta, etc...but when you compare the real ones with Synthedit stuff, and your typical bog-standard VA...you will hear the difference.

Another good tip is to go to a store that sells analogues, and compare one directly up against a VA h/w synth such as Ion, Virus etc. Several of you might be surprised when you hear your precious Virus up against it.

Now, tell me what you know...

I think I'll have to cut it real short. Possibly the best way is to list the analogues and digital synths I've either owned or had regular access to, shall I?

MS10
MS20
Polysix
MonoPoly
DW8000
EX600
Juno106
Juno6
Juno60
JX3p
JX10
Jupiter6
MC202
SH101
TB303
AlphaJuno1
SH1000
SH09
System100
Oddysey
Solina
Rogue
MiniMoog
Prodigy
Jupiter4
OBX
OBXa
OB8
Obie 4 voice
OSCar
ProOne
ProV
3C Moog modular
Serge modular
Wasp
Kitten
JenSX1000
CS05
CS10
CS40m
DX27
DX100
Wavestation
01/W
SY99
JD800
D660
D50
M1
Several PSR keyboards (no idea why I bought those...
)
Prophecy
Triton
W30
K1000
K2500
Ion
JP8000
MS2000

There are quite a few that aren't on that list that I sorely wish I had owned or had access to, but it just isn't (yet) to be. That's not a brag...I know and knew a few people who put that little list into shadow with some of the monsters they had. It's just to show that I do actually know what analogue and digital synths sound like. Not from MP3s and reviews. Not from 2nd hand knowledge. I feel pretty certain there are one or two within KvR that can easily top that list with their own personal experience of h/w synths from the past (as you can see...my list is pitifully poor in terms of digital 80s/90s synths too...) But nevertheless I've played around with enough of them to know what their weaknesses and strengths are.

Viruses are OK. They are NOT special. But many like their particular character...good for them. It's all subjective anyway. When you've messed around with a C3 Moog with 9 oscillators and the full list of modules, and a Serge or a VC3 etc, then I'll listen when you tell me a Virus is such a wonderful thing.





Oh...I'd also like to add: Out of all that lot, I still like to use some particular VSTi, both for sound and usefulness etc. Software most definitely has its place - I'd happily replace several of those analogue synths with some VSTi...in fact I have done already.

pfffehehehehehe, right...

Juno isn't crap. It's considered inferior to many other analog synth. That is apparently a green light for gloating idiots to call it crap.

MP3 samples unfortunately for you are revealing. Unlike the rubbish tales you're spinning.

Here you can hear how crappy Juno is compared to vsts:

http://www.unease.se/juno.htm

That filter really is a piece of shit that you can knock down with just about any vst

[kritikon]

That filter really is a piece of shit that you can knock down with just about any vst

I'm glad you agree.

Neither my 106 or Alpha get used for audio source nowadays. The Juno makes a handy velocity-less keyboard controller, mainly because it's got that big space at the left which fits a glass of wine and an ashtray rather neatly. Otherwise...it doesn't even look impressive, and sounds less so. As for the pitiful unison - I think I'd rather use a cheapo VSTi like Superwave for unison sounds. At least that one stacks the oscillators instead of cancelling them out.

The only reason I've not sold them is because here in NZ there's almost no market for them. I have no choice but keep them or just give them away (which I'm not going to do...)
...If anyone is coming over to NZ for a holiday etc, you can pick up my Junos for a reasonable price - less than you'll pay over in Europe anyway. (And no...shipping is not worth the expense)

[kritikon]

MP3 samples unfortunately for you are revealing. Unlike the rubbish tales you're spinning.

Believe what you want. No skin off my nose. You should realise you give your age away by what you say though. Even only 10 years ago, PC audio was not a big thing (apart from running the actual midi sequencer). You don't have to go back much further than that, and almost anyone who ran a studio of any kind with any degree of seriousness had a room full of synths. I probably never actually had more than 10 most of the time (and admittedly that was more than some of my mates back in the day). I think the most I ever had chained together was 11. So you see that you only need to know 2 or 3 studio owners to know how many synths you could be using. And of course you sell the odd one to make room for a different one.

You give your inexperience away by the fact that you assume I'm bullshitting about how many synths I've owned or had access to. The envy shines through...which is silly, because I'm seriously not bragging about how many synths I've used. It just was like that years ago. I was no different to many people I collaborated with. You can compare it to the sheer amount of VSTi you have access to today - there are hundreds out there - well, once upon a time the only difference was that they were h/w, not s/w, and if you wanted a wide palette of sounds, you bit the bullet and dug into your wallet. Anyone who was serious about electronic music through the 80s/90s will have used a whole heap of synths over the years. And it's not a matter of pride either...it just is. If I were to live those days again, do you think I wouldn't have killed to have access to cheap s/w with the huge range there is today? You're the one deluding yourself mate.

I listed those synths so that you and others who spout the usual rubbish about Viruses and Junos etc may know that some of us here actually do have the wide experience to know the difference with our ears. For any analogue die-hard, Junos really aren't worth the time of day. If you have one and enjoy it...good luck with it, I hope you make nice music with it. And I can also say with certainty that when you do actually get to play with the seriously good ones - well, I just wish I was there to say "I told you so". Because they're in a different league to crappy Junos. But, hey! I must be deaf through old age or something, huh? Because I actively choose to use free VSTi rather than my Junos. One day, you'll know why.


I just fail to see why the connection doesn't click with some people. There is good and bad analogue in just the same way there is good and bad s/w. It's as though just because it's analogue it has to be good? That's patently rubbish. You compare quality between h/w items in exactly the same way you do between s/w - I can see obviously there's a big difference between impOSCar and something like ModelE. Just as I can see there's a big difference between a Juno in unison and any decent mono synth, such as an MS10 (although an MS20 would be more of a like-like comparison, as at least it can stack oscillators like a Juno...in fact, with only 2 oscillators it can make far more noise than any Juno with 3 oscillators; and in unison that Juno then has 6 times 3 oscillators playing - and it still sounds pathetic compared to an MS20 self-oscillating with the output fed back into the filters). Or that there's a difference between a Pro-V and a Juno (if you keep the comparison between polys). Even between manufacturers there's a world of difference - compare a Jp6 and any Juno, and tell me you wouldn't every day rather use the Jp6. If you had one of those, you really wouldn't ever have any reason whatsoever to use a Juno again for the rest of your life. Straight-forward and simple.