KVR Audio

WMP · Post by **WMP** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:59 pm

So who is up for a simple challenge?

I'll make a nice simple bass sound on the Sequential Pro-1, I won't use any resonance at all just plain old 2 osc, and adsr for filter cuttoff and evlelope.

A really simple patch and we could see if peeps can get close with soft synths?

The patch would also have to be played C1, C2, C3, C4, C5 and C6 to show how it responds over 6 octaves.

I have tomorrow off so can make a start.

themossinator · Post by **themossinator** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Bass in C5 and C6? Is that still bass?

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:47 pm

Here's an example using just a single sawwave oscillator of a Roland SH-2 and me playing around with the filter and the envelope. No processing added.

www.scherer.de/Download/SH_Saw.wav

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:26 am

These challenges always go one way!

Here is an example of a digital soft synth. Just oscs and filters (plus some modulation)- no internal or external effects.

Anyone with a real analog want to take a challenge and duplicate this sound?
http://draigathar.org/sounds/2.5.4.wav

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:42 am

living sounds wrote:Here's an example using just a single sawwave oscillator of a Roland SH-2 and me playing around with the filter and the envelope. No processing added.

I still think it hardly is worth discussing differences with these MP3s. They sound awfull. Makes the sound flat, thin, lifeless and flakey.

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:17 am

pdxindy wrote:These challenges always go one way!

Here is an example of a digital soft synth. Just oscs and filters (plus some modulation)- no internal or external effects.

Anyone with a real analog want to take a challenge and duplicate this sound?
http://draigathar.org/sounds/2.5.4.wav

Sounds nice, what is it?

Mans · Post by **Mans** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:55 am

IncarnateX wrote:
living sounds wrote:Here's an example using just a single sawwave oscillator of a Roland SH-2 and me playing around with the filter and the envelope. No processing added.
I still think it hardly is worth discussing differences with these MP3s. They sound awfull. Makes the sound flat, thin, lifeless and flakey.

There's no MP3 compression on that file..

hakey · Post by **hakey** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:47 am

The comparison between clips that Jupiter 8 gave us was worthwhile because we (most of us) didn't know which was which - it was a blind A/B (and a clear majority worked out which was the analog).

Posting clips of analog synths and challenging people to reproduce them with VSTi's isn't quite the same thing - we've all heard the original, so making an unbiased judgement is probably not going to happen.

I'd be really interested in hearing some more blind A/B's where an analog zealot makes a short clip demonstrating an aspect of that synth's "unique" analog qualities, then gives that clip to a VA evangelist who attempts to reproduce it, both clips then being put up here and people invited to vote in a pole for which they think is the real analog.

Lossl · Post by **Lossl** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:31 am

recreation is always harder, especially since you can take advantage of the synth's sweet spot when you create the reference patch-
so in the end it doesn't prove anything other than that this one patch is sounding better on synth x "even" if both synths were some of the "holy grail" analog synths of the past

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:01 am

Lossl wrote:recreation is always harder, especially since you can take advantage of the synth's sweet spot when you create the reference patch-
so in the end it doesn't prove anything other than that this one patch is sounding better on synth x "even" if both synths were some of the "holy grail" analog synths of the past

The thing about the SH-2 is that it's one big sweet spot. My favourite synth for bass.

hakey · Post by **hakey** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:04 am

Lossl wrote:recreation is always harder, especially since you can take advantage of the synth's sweet spot when you create the reference patch

But there is an on going argument about whether or not digital emulation of analog synthesis has yet reached the stage where emulation can satisfactorily reproduce all of the behaviour of analogs.

On one side the 'zealots' say that there are still some qualities that emulation can not fully recreate.

On the other side a VA 'evangelist' might say that emulation can do everything that analogs do.

Blind A/B comparisons seem a reasonable (and most likely the only) way to test the arguments of the zealots vs. the evangelists. Note: the criteria for any comparison would be 'which is analog, which is VA', not 'which sounds better', so 'sweet spots' shouldn't really come into it (amd if the VA evangelist argument is right, and VA can reproduce all analog behaviour, that should include any sweet spots anyway).

For the record my entirely subjective opinion is that VSTi's are 'better' than analog synths (going on sonic range, ease of use, polyphony, cost benefit etc), I also reckon that VA can't yet fully reproduce every last nuance of analog behaviour, but then I don't think that matters too much.

DWb · Post by **DWb** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:15 am

Lossl wrote:recreation is always harder, especially since you can take advantage of the synth's sweet spot when you create the reference patch-
so in the end it doesn't prove anything other than that this one patch is sounding better on synth x "even" if both synths were some of the "holy grail" analog synths of the past

Yes, a fairer challenge would be to make a sound 'in roughly the style of this one' or something. And to use multiple examples and see if people could group them into analogue and digital. Noone (afaik) disputes that all synths can make exactly the same sounds, what's more interesting[1] is the claim that all analogue synths have something in common that digital synths lack.

[1] fsvo 'interesting'

hakey · Post by **hakey** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:23 am

DWb wrote:what's more interesting[1] is the claim that all analogue synths have something in common that digital synths lack.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all analogue synths have the 'elusive factor' in common.

The interesting claim to me is rather that some analog synths may exhibit some (desirable) behaviours that VA emulation can not yet satisfactorily reproduce.

Lossl · Post by **Lossl** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:38 am

But there is an on going argument about whether or not digital emulation of analog synthesis has yet reached the stage where emulation can satisfactorily reproduce all of the behaviour of analogs.

yes, but what is THE behaviour of analogs?
most analog synths (and digital aswell) have a different sound / different feature set / different behaviour

and when you are using a good VA synth on it's own to make it sound good and don't "just" try to make an attempt to capture every nuance of a nearby sitting analog synth's patch i think most people would fail the analog / digital blindtest -
and even analogs could potentially sound "worse" (or "less analog") compared to that reference sound

For the record my entirely subjective opinion is that VSTi's are 'better' than analog synths (going on sonic range, ease of use, polyphony, cost benefit etc), I also reckon that VA can't yet fully reproduce every last nuance of analog behaviour, but then I don't think that matters too much.

100% agree with that

The interesting claim to me is rather that some analog synths may exhibit some (desirable) behaviours that VA emulation can not yet satisfactorily reproduce.

of course there are some "nuances" that have not been 100% faithfully digitally recreated, but it also goes the other way around (and even analog or VA internal- since most synths can sound "better" or "worse" on different material- as all instruments have their strengths and weaknesses)

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:45 am

How about a challenge where someone produces a complex multi-modulated pad in Absynth or FM8 and then someone tries to recreate that with an analog synthesizer?

Analog or digital ?