KVR Audio

sches · Post by **sches** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:22 am

bmanic, it is really nice to read a such non-agressive review, I don't care if it negative, I'm interested in full spectrum opinions, and thank you for that!

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:26 am

pdxindy wrote:
bmanic wrote:
These are harsh words but not meant with any malice.

bManic
Not malice, but they are ridiculously overstated... It is a lovely sounding synth... maybe not your cup of tea, but that is different...

Eh? So no I am not entitled to my own opinion just because in your opinion it is lovely, so surely my description MUST be wrong?

Personally I don't immediately like the sound of ElectraX... or Massive for that matter. Diversion sounds more appealing to me than either of those. They are all high quality synths. It is good that there is diversity.

I agree with you on that diversion has a distinct own sound (which is a good thing!) and very clearly said so in my second post.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:30 am

Teksonik wrote:I still don't understand why people seem to think that Synthesizer automatically equals Saw Wave.... don't we have enough standard VA's already?

Because running a simple saw wave through a filter tells a person a HUGE amount of information.

Same with some effects, you test the extremes to learn the units own signature quicker than when doing other things. With compressors you make them bleed with ridiculous threshold levels and ratios, fastest attack and release possible. This teaches you a lot of the internal workings of a compressor.

I've tweaked synths for more than 25 years now and the simple saw wave -> filter (modulated by the envelope) test has proven very useful for learning the sound of the synth (well, mainly the filter in case of a good saw wave, which diversity seems to have).

Diversion seems to be a "Love it or Hate it" instrument....I happen to love it and it's crisp clear sound (and the Acid LP etc etc)....refreshing in a sea of samey VA's....I don't want Diversion to sound like every other synth.....I already own every other synth......(or damn near anyway)........

The two most important things a new synth can bring are Character and Quality of which Diversion has loads in my opinion....

And again, I agree with you here (like I already stated in the earlier post).

Examigan · Post by **Examigan** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:30 am

I tried the demo out last night, and you're right about it needing a fast PC.
I only have an older dual-core setup (it's before the Core2Duo's came out) and it had a lot of trouble with many presets.

But from what I heard before the times where it dropped out or froze up, it sounds very, very good. Or maybe I should just say excellent.

I can see why there is a warning about needing a modern/fast PC, and I did read about that before downloading it, so I was prepared.

I had this same type of issue with ACE (he warns up front also) and I'd definitely need a new PC for this (hey I need a new PC anyway

), but it would be well worth it.

Love the GUI too.. great job with that, one of the best I've seen so far.

-Rob

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:44 am

sches wrote:bmanic, it is really nice to read a such non-agressive review, I don't care if it negative, I'm interested in full spectrum opinions, and thank you for that!

Glad to hear that.

The synthesizer obviously has a lot of effort behind it (lovely clear GUI and lots of sound shaping possibilities!). Hence I decided to actually try the demo and voice my opinion, which I do not even bother doing if I don't think it's worth the effort.

I really do think that the weakest link in the synth are the slightly characterless basic filter types. The comb filters and allpasses are nice but for a lot of sounds, the basic filters are key in removing or enhancing (resonance) certain parts of the sound.

There are some "beginner" mistakes in the filters in how the resonance behaves. It's frustrating working with filters that do not have a controlled resonance curve. I remember in agony my days of programming the Roland JD800 and JV-1080 with it's LP filter that had unpredictable and very, very loud resonance. It gets ear piercing at high frequencies and horribly unstable at lower frequencies.

The main culprit seems to be the 24dB type you have. It's like there is no built in saturation of the filter at all. I know you provide a saturation option with the drive knob but that just makes the filter buzzy or fizzy.

Another area that could perhaps be enhanced is the basic envelope. I haven't yet measured the shape or actual speed of the envelopes but something is a bit too "chunky" about them, like they aren't smooth enough (too low resolution?). It's very hard to pinpoint this.. and I might even be completely wrong here. Perhaps it is all tied to the filter again?

I'll keep testing the demo and try to figure out exactly what bothers me about the sound. Perhaps it is of assistance for future updates or other projects. A lot of people like the synth exactly as it is so do not in any case change anything without having full backwards compatibility. More filter types can easily be added without removing the old (like Urs did with Zebra).

Cheers and good fortune with the sales!
bManic

LfmC · Post by **LfmC** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:12 am

bmanic wrote: There are some "beginner" mistakes in the filters in how the resonance behaves. It's frustrating working with filters that do not have a controlled resonance curve. I remember in agony my days of programming the Roland JD800 and JV-1080 with it's LP filter that had unpredictable and very, very loud resonance. It gets ear piercing at high frequencies and horribly unstable at lower frequencies.

The main culprit seems to be the 24dB type you have. It's like there is no built in saturation of the filter at all. I know you provide a saturation option with the drive knob but that just makes the filter buzzy or fizzy.

I have to agree with this. Although I like the sound of the filter, there seems to be some resonance issue making it rather unpredictable and hard to control at times. Also the resonance knob seems to react in a bit of a strange way, perhaps logarithmic instead of linear, meaning there is almost no resonance boost the 50% of the turn, and a sudden boost in resonance on the last 10% of the knob turn. Not sure if this is a bug or not, though. Similar situation with the distortion which kicks in suddenly, and lowers the volume of the sound considerably. Again, this is not a deal-breaker, as it just takes a bit of getting used to, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

...still loving the sound, though

izonin · Post by **izonin** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:17 am

Teksonik wrote:
izonin wrote:Hmm am I the only one who thinks that it sounds as bad as a 2002 Reaktor ensemble, while consuming 10 times more CPU than most commercial synths?
Yes, you're the only one with Tin ears..............

What do ears have to do with it? The design of the synth is super naive. It's like some school project, and the guy is trying to sell it for $200. The only nice thing about it is the skin.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:23 am

'arsh.
I dunno, will try it soon.
Fitting up my guitar 4 MIDI at the moment.
Or ODing on KVR{blush}
Sorry OT

Crackbaby · Post by **Crackbaby** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:23 am

Nice one bManic! I agree about the filters, the resonance can get out of control..

As you said, new filters can be added later on. The same with osc's and the overdrives

Those drone osc's are insanely fun to make .. insane stuff with! I have a few patches where a square lfo controls x/y parameters making it sound like some ancient .. no .. alien! .. well, machine of some sort. Very mechanic and insane!
I have to test the envelopes and see what you mean.
Right now im way over heels infatuated with this synth, but if anything can be improved, then improve it

We all have different taste in sound and ways to try out new synths. I do the same way as you first, saw, filter envelope, sweep. And if you compare for instance ACE to Diversion, ACE sounds a lot fatter and fuller. But the gem (well, one of them) with diversion is when you take osc 1 + 2 and then start to mess with phase, FM(!!!), the x/y and trying different osc types. The sonical(not a word huh?) possibilities are endless here

Im sure you can make something just as fat and full as ACE, but never the same sound. Good ACE is cheap

For me it becomes a creative challenge to get that full sound and it ends up different every time. Starting out with a sound that's "perfect" from start (just talking osc's here) sort of stops my creativity. We're all different!

As soon as i can ill upload some sound examples demonstrating how i use diversion.
Parents coming for visit today so ......... no diversion for many hours

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:32 am

I just replaced the filters of some of the presets with fabfilter volcano and the results improved dramatically! Of course this can only be done when the filter is the last in the chain of output, like if there is a filter in the sub group and nothing after it.

I now firmly believe that some of the ear piercing, hard and cold sound, comes from the filters and some of "chunk" from the envelope. Especially when using the resonance of any of the basic filters it quickly turns into something that hurts my ears whereas with volcano I can crank up the resonance and still have a high cutoff without killing my ears.

Anyhow, the oscillators are definitely interesting and can provide a lot of sonic variety.

However, in the world of subtractive synthesis, filters are of a huge importance.

Esgalachoir · Post by **Esgalachoir** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:42 am

bmanic wrote:
Anyhow, the oscillators are definitely interesting and can provide a lot of sonic variety.

+1
Was just toying around with the demo and the oscillators are very clean and crisp and I like what you can do with them.

paterpeter · Post by **paterpeter** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:42 am

I had a very brief session with the Diversion demo on my laptop. Without a midi controller/keyboard it's hard to really test drive a synth and I mainly browsed the presets. Nevertheless, I think Diversion sounds good. It's hard to describe the sound - I'd say cool, raw, piercing, but in a good way. The sound reminded me of the Portal 2 soundtrack which is also somehow cold, "technical" and digital for the most part - again, in a good way. The impression could of course come from the presets, maybe Diversion can be as warm as other synths. I think that Diversion can act as a great addition to other synths.

A bit of constructive critique:
- The modulation system is a tad too basic for my taste. I'd like to see at least a "via" paramter, e.g. to control the effect of an LFO on the pitch via my mod wheel.
- The MSEG could use some extra features. E.g. let the user define which points correspond to the attack, decay, sustain and release parameters in a conventional ADSR envelope. That way, the user can e.g. define a sustain value or loop(!). Also, make the length/level of those parts modulation destinations. E.g. mapping velocity to the attack phase is nice to have.
- The installer installs the presets in the Documents folder of the user that installed Diversion. I for example use a different user account for installation than for normal day to day use. Thus, I couldn't see any presets at first and I had to copy them from my admin account.

About the price... well, for a company with no track record $200/$150 is a bit steep IMHO. At that price range there are many well established companies with excellent products some of which outperform Diversion feature-wise.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best for your sale!

Regards,
Andre

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:43 am

bmanic wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
bmanic wrote:
These are harsh words but not meant with any malice.

bManic
Not malice, but they are ridiculously overstated... It is a lovely sounding synth... maybe not your cup of tea, but that is different...
Eh? So no I am not entitled to my own opinion just because in your opinion it is lovely, so surely my description MUST be wrong?

Oh what a poor little victim you are... You can have your opinion just as I can have my opinion that your opinion was overstated

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:45 am

bmanic wrote:I just replaced the filters of some of the presets with fabfilter volcano and the results improved dramatically!

post some audio?

Liero · Post by **Liero** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:53 am

We were just talking about this phenomenon in another synth thread...

I've been demoing this too, the GUI is excellent and that's a really important thing but I have a similar gripe as bmanic does, there's something about the sound that is very unpleasant to me. I don't know if it's a weird coincidence that my monitors or room boost some kinda frequency that is disturbing but the basic oscillator&filter sound is IMO IMO IMO harsh. My other synths are Omnisphere and Twin and IMO IMO IMO they have a kind of "silkiness" or smoothness about them that this synth is the absolute opposite of.

So again, a synth with some really great features but one aspect of it that is subjectively really lacking and makes it a no-go for maybe a lot of people, maybe just me, I dunno. If the pure sound at the core of this synth was like the sound of Twin, it might be a likely purchase for me.

Diversion - new VST synth released!