Diva Vs. Real Analog

[pdxindy]

Rupert Neve recently turned 80 and is still producing the goods. Some of his recent work has been extraordinary.

There is a reason companies like Manley Labs, Great River Electronics, Audient all exist.

Thats because there is a steady demand for their product.

Yup... and at first digital photography was not for pros... then it was. Then digital video wiped out the analog camcorder but people said it could not touch film and that movies were still analog and there was a reason for it. Now digital is making the inroads into movies too.

Video/photography is an easier nut to crack cause even analog movies are 'digital' in the sense of being 24 frames per second. They are quantized. Audio is harder so will take longer but I would guess that whether 5 years or 20 from now, the economic pressure will force companies like Manley out of business.

[izonin]

If some of you cant tell the difference between when an analogue compressor kicks in compared to a digital one well then you know the rest of the story.

All you'll get with the digital one is color and not character like analogue.

That's what I was thinking - u-he should make a compressor next.

Diva's filters are beautifully nonlinear, and a compressor with the same character would be a definite success. Something like the Glue, but with the proper saturation to "cook" the sound.

As u-he have already proven, as long as it sounds good, the cpu consumption is not an issue.

[randyandyvandaman]

As u-he have already proven, as long as it sounds good, the cpu consumption is not an issue.

The only thing that U-he has proven is that most of his products are CPU intensive. Remember Ace!!!!

cheers

[D N A]

who cares If it works for you - use it.

[goldenanalog]

As a former hard-core audio guy, lot's of the present day analog equipment hype makes sense to me....Yes: I have always appreciated Nakamichi, Crown, BGW, B&O, B&W, Klipsch, Thorens, Shure, 12AX7's, VFET's, tantalum caps, metal-film resistors, Ampex rell-to-reel's, etc. etc.

Back-in-the-day, the so-called: 'good stuff' was built using Audio Magic and Voodoo, and almost unaffordable. Yes, I remember all the pomp and circuimstance surrounding things like the Van Alstine-Dynaco 410 mod; which loosely translated now = $$$.

OK: mass-marketed CD's came along; and thus started the unholy analog/digital wars that have lasted to this day; making a few well-placed well-meaning (?) individuals quasi-rich in the process as they got the audio community to switch to Large-gauge OFC wire that better preserved the phase relationship of input signals; 'superior-sounding' MC cartridges requiring greater gain stages with requisite low noise circuit topologies proving unequivically that analog rulez...of course: The best analog equipment employed tubes-NOS Soviet stock, of course. ($$$).

What killed my interest in snob audio was when individual audio critics were exposed to, and failed controlled scientifically-approached double-blind tests.

Translated: You hear what you want to hear-that many (if not all) of us fall victim to marketing.

OK: galaxiesmerge's post was quite good; but I would argue that to say: I own XYZS but you really don't need XYZS is like the guy with a million dollars who says that you really don't need a million dollars; you can get by on pots and pans. LOL!

Actually, galaxiesmerge is quite right; except for one minor detail:

We ALL want the good shit. Don't deny it. All of us do. But: most can't afford it; can't maintain it; don't have the space; don't really need large, heavy 'furniture' either in the way; or too heavy to move; etc.

SO: How do we get what we want? Enter guys like Urs, Xavier, and 100's of other dev guys who quite possibly could make some of our wishes come true.

You need a fast computer (not too much $$$), a decent audio 'interface' (not real $$$) a few pieces of outboard support equipment, and NOW with Urs' help, you have something that sounds a lot like a minimoog, and is a lot of fun to play with!

DIVA doesn't take up much room; you can afford it; and it plays quite nicely with the other stuff that you have running on your computer.

And there's 1,000,000's of other people just like you; and some of those guys wind up reading and posting stuff on KVR, just like I'm doing now.

Futurespeak: analog gear winds up in professional studios. That's a small percentage of the total number of people involved in all the different aspects of music production. I would love to have a 10-foot Steinway; no room, can't afford it. Piano software, on the other hand-plenty of that.

It's pretty obvious to me where it's all going.

[Sascha Franck]

All you'll get with the digital one is color and not character like analogue.

Nonsense. The "character" you are talking about is the erratic behaviour of analogue stuff.
What makes up for "musical character" is musical talent and quality equipment, nothing else. And digital equipment has proven more than once that it can deliver quality just perfectly.
We're not exactly "there" yet (wherever "there" might be...) but we're getting close. TONS of things that have been done in the analogue realmfor ages have already been replaced by digital items. And most others (no, make that "all") that theoretically can be replaced will follow.
FWIW: I have been at the Frankfurt Musikmesse when VST 2 was introduced. People laughed their asses off at the cheap sounds good ol' "Neon" produced. Not even 5 years later and you could hardly find a studio with a hardware sampler anymore. Unless they are built into some workstation for live purposes, hardware samplers are dead. Completely DEAD!
Similar things are already true for a whole lot of other things the vast majority of successful music has been produced with during the last, say, decade.
And everything (!) else will follow.

There is a reason companies like Manley Labs, Great River Electronics, Audient all exist.

Thats because there is a steady demand for their product.

Plain nonsense again. All that is left is a small amount of elite producers that can stil afford these things. Again, the vast majority of producers is already leaving the sinking ship. The sales figures for almost all analogue musical equipment are shrinking. There might be the occasional exception here and there, for good reasons even (as an example, an analogue input mixer is still a good thing to have at times, so is a Marshall Plexi), but these will dwindle away eventually. There's just no way around it, the convenience, price and performance of digital can't be beaten.

If some of you cant tell the difference between when an analogue compressor kicks in compared to a digital one well then you know the rest of the story.

Not only is this an arrogant statement, but it also shows that you have no clue and are strictly talking out of your ass.
People have been fooled in numerous ABX tests already and the number is increasing.
Heard of the KPA (Kemper Profiling Amplifier) yet? Unfortunately I couldn't get my hands on one so far, but there's already been some quite experienced guitar players that have been fooled into thinking it was whatever original amp in blind tests. Now, when you can already emulate something like an overdriven tube guitar amp perfectly, why shouldn't you be able to emulate whatever compressor perfectly? Essentially, both the tube amp and the compressor are doing the same thing, just that a compressor will probably be way easier to capture.

As u-he have already proven, as long as it sounds good, the cpu consumption is not an issue.

The only thing that U-he has proven is that most of his products are CPU intensive. Remember Ace!!!!

So far, most things emulating analogue stuff more or less identically are munching CPU power for breakfast. And that's precisely the reason why many analogue items are still in use.
In ten years (at best) all that will be no issue anymore.

Whatever, making a swift general statement like U-He stuff using much CPU power shows how little you know. I'd say that his most successful product has to be Zebra. And Zebra is extremely reasonable in terms of CPU useage. The same goes for Filterscape, MFM2, etc.

- Sascha

[Ingonator]

What killed my interest in snob audio was when individual audio critics were exposed to, and failed controlled scientifically-approached double-blind tests.

Translated: You hear what you want to hear-that many (if not all) of us fall victim to marketing.

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.
At last years Musikmesse i was testing the awesome Schmidt Eightvoice monster analog synth. The soud which came out of the speakers literally blew me away. It was like if the sound was going through my whole body. This feeling is still hard to get from a softsynth but i had it once with a preset (i guess my own one) in Xils Synthix and a little less with Diva so maybe we are really closer than i thought...

Conclusion: I love digital and softsynths but there are still a few things where real analog synth are superior. Anyway synths like Synthix and Diva are a big step forward. I would also not like to decide between those two as they are really different in terms of features and sound.


Ingo

[goldenanalog]

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.
At last years Musikmesse i was testing the awesome Schmidt Eightvoice monster analog synth. The soud which came out of the speakers literally blew me away. It was like if the sound was going through my whole body. This feeling is still hard to get from a softsynth but i had it once with a preset (i guess my own one) in Xils Synthix and a little less with Diva so maybe we are really closer than i thought...


Ingo

I haven't got rid of my analog synths yet, Ingo. Not yet.

[Ingonator]

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.
At last years Musikmesse i was testing the awesome Schmidt Eightvoice monster analog synth. The soud which came out of the speakers literally blew me away. It was like if the sound was going through my whole body. This feeling is still hard to get from a softsynth but i had it once with a preset (i guess my own one) in Xils Synthix and a little less with Diva so maybe we are really closer than i thought...


Ingo

I haven't got rid of my analog synths yet, Ingo. Not yet.

If you do you would have to change your KVR name to something like "goldensoftsynth" or "goldenVA".


Ingo

[izonin]

It should be easy to recognize that most VA synth lack in the low frequencies in comparison to a real analog synth.
Two which do quite well in this area are U-He Diva and Xils Synthix but they are still not on par with a real analog synth. I was only able to compare with my Moog Slim Phatty which could produce low freqencies that are close to destroy your speakers, especially with the filter overload turned up.

Just curious, have you tried running the Slim Phatty through your soundcards converters? It might be that the D/A's are not capable of producing a rich, focused bass. It happens to me when using a digital processor on a bass guitar.

[goldenanalog]

Ingo, How does the name: 'Psuedometallicanalyst' sound?

I'd miss those bitches if I sold them-had them for years.

[randyandyvandaman]

Sascha,

The only one sliding into irrelevance is yourself.

Not only is this an arrogant statement, but it also shows that you have no clue and are strictly talking out of your ass.

So far, most things emulating analogue stuff more or less identically are munching CPU power for breakfast. And that's precisely the reason why many analogue items are still in use.
In ten years (at best) all that will be no issue anymore.

Sascha, last time I checked a computer is made of up parts like cpu's and motherboards etc.

Transistors and semi conductors like those in Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, Gulftown Etc all require voltage in one direction so essentially are an analogue device.

So therefore you have to host a digital device inside an analogue one.

So Sascha which comes first ? The chicken or the egg!!!

So who's talking out of there ass now Sascha ....

Whatever, making a swift general statement like U-He stuff using much CPU power shows how little you know

Mark my words Sascha the only winners here will be the computer shops when you fan boys have to upgrade your lappie or desktop to host that cpu humgry Diva.

Cheers

[Urs]

Dunno what people are afraid of. I said it and say it again: The analogue market is bigger than it ever was before. It found its niche (which obviously is not mass production of bread'n'butter polysynths)

The software market is more volatile. Some kinds of software and brands have reached market saturation, other kinds of software are still growing.

I believe that we're growing because our products define their own niches. The only equivalent to ACE in terms of patching is the WayOutWare's timewARP 2600 (and probably Aalto, which seems highly interesting). The only equivalent to Diva in terms of mix and match is Arturia Origin. I still don't think I've seen an interface/workflow like Zebra's yet. All of these concepts are only possible in the digital realm - or way to expensive to ever be successful products

I don't care about comparisons with Mophos, Little Phatties (Zebra gets much closer than Diva), Rev. 1 Jupiter 8s, other plugins and what not. It's all irrelevant because these use different circuitry/models/blah. We know how close our models are to the references we have, and the only thing that can change that is the corrosion in our little synth museum

[izonin]

Sascha,

The only one sliding into irrelevance is yourself.

Not only is this an arrogant statement, but it also shows that you have no clue and are strictly talking out of your ass.

So far, most things emulating analogue stuff more or less identically are munching CPU power for breakfast. And that's precisely the reason why many analogue items are still in use.
In ten years (at best) all that will be no issue anymore.

Sascha, last time I checked a computer is made of up parts like cpu's and motherboards etc.

Transistors and semi conductors like those in Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, Gulftown Etc all require voltage in one direction so essentially are an analogue device.

So therefore you have to host a digital device inside an analogue one.

So Sascha which comes first ? The chicken or the egg!!!

So who's talking out of there ass now Sascha ....

Whatever, making a swift general statement like U-He stuff using much CPU power shows how little you know

Mark my words Sascha the only winners here will be the computer shops when you fan boys have to upgrade your lappie or desktop to host that cpu humgry Diva.

Cheers

When you listen to a digital recording of an analog device, it still sounds analog. So, in theory, it's possible to emulate the sound. Axe FX already did it.

[Urs]

Mark my words Sascha the only winners here will be the computer shops when you fan boys have to upgrade your lappie or desktop to host that cpu humgry Diva.

Lol. We've modeled a good 17000€ worth of vintage equipment on current eBay rates in Diva. The price of a new computer that can handle multiple instances of her is absolutely irrelevant in comparison.