This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar

[jens]

wanted to edit an earlier double-post, quoted instead - happens all the time to me these days...

[Numanoid]

Sadly Cakewalk messages are getting close to be spam.

Every other day during the last couple of weeks, I've been getting messages from the about "Last Chance to get Sonar", and the "Extended" and then "Last Chance" again

[excessional]

I use Sonar X3e Pro x64 around 8-10 hours a day - 7 days a week - and I have very few problems with the program...

I couldn't be happier with that DAW and I am really grateful to the bakers who put together such a wonderful piece of software with lots of built in goodness and no subscription BS

I don't really follow the problem here - I have Sonar Platinum and I'm not on subscription - I just bought it the same way I bought X3. One-off payment.

If they only rented you the new Sonar and you couldn't use it anymore when your subscription stopped I would of course see a huge issue - but you can either buy it outright or pay for it over 12 months and get it for good that way - in either case you get to keep it for good and get 12 months of patches/upgrades included.

In the old days you paid an upgrade fee when they brought a new version and as and when you wanted it.
Same nowadays in effect. I delayed upgrading until this month and won't even think about paying another upgrade fee for another 18 months or so - so that will be two full years between paying for new versions. It's not like it's a lot of money either, in the scheme of things...

If you don't like that model and want free upgrades and new versions forever there is always FL of course...

[chk071]

Sadly Cakewalk messages are getting close to be spam.

Every other day during the last couple of weeks, I've been getting messages from the about "Last Chance to get Sonar", and the "Extended" and then "Last Chance" again

Unfortunately, when you need them, they're not there... waiting for Z3TA 2 50% off.

[Jace-BeOS]

planetearth/Steve:

My ire was raised by your comment that "Cakewalk didn't remove..." I took this as a rejection of, or refusal to believe, my statement that the relevant menu entry was missing in one of my Sonar installations [edit: or a refusal to accept it had gone away independently of my actions]. If "Cakewalk didn't..." then who did?? Implication, to my eyes, was that I was being fingered as the culprit. Was I misinterpreting you? If so, what did you mean?

Your post was... difficult; you seemed not to be referencing the correct details involving the tech issues of myself and Jens. In my tech issue case, the menu is the "Tools" menu. Not the "Utilities" menu as you called it. In the case of Jens' issue, you were seemingly talking like Jens had claimed Sonar changed a Windows setting, which was never the claim. This incorrect terminology mixed together with what seemed to be rejection of the validity of the issues. Result: Your post looked flippant to me. So I flipped.

Or I'm being trolled. I really don't know at this point. I'd like to not care, but if I've been a raging asshole to someone that just used poor wording, then I would prefer to end the conflict and apologize for it.

[CTStump]

At least we don't have John T or Daveny5 telling people how stupid they are for complaining in first place.

I REMEMBER those helpers running the board at the cakewalk forum back in the day.

[Jace-BeOS]

Just browsing this thread give me a BIG headache...

Common with this topic (Cakewalk). It's a polarizing one.

Lot's of negative shit posted by mainly one person and it's not worth any time "dwelling" in their world...

Does this address me? If so, my world is pretty negative at the moment. It does seep into my forum posts on some topics for specific reasons, which I'll address below. My apologies for my contribution to your headache, though.

I use Sonar X3e Pro x64 around 8-10 hours a day - 7 days a week - and I have very few problems with the program...

This is a good thing for you.

It is set up on a few computers that were built as DAWs - not as do everything machines...

Those DAWs are not connected to the internet and I try to keep them clear of "rubbish" that just clogs up the system - leading to conflicts - and slows everything down....

Wise tactics, but these tactics ultimately failed when I tried them. Along with the inconvenience of a crippled computer (especially when so much software expects net access for documentation, error reporting, licensing, etc), I simply lacked the resources to continuously maintain separate computers for separate applications.

I'd like to point out that demanding this kind of application isolation is proof of the very architectural problems I'm complaining about in computer tech (and Windows, primarily). A professional does what he/she has to in order to do the work, yes, but the business is excessively inefficient when defective tools are coddled.

I think this is the primary reason why people complain about issues with any major piece of software...

The software is usually OK,but it's the human interface that brings the element of "surprise"

I'm not sure. Yes, some of Sonar's GUI stinks in terms of behavior and user experience (well, my experience with 8.5.3 and earlier stinks, but I hear people describing the continued presence of some of that in the X-series) and those problems grate on me intensely because they're a necessary part of using the tool. However, Gapless playback (why is that capitalized by autocorrect??) isn't relevant to human interface. It's basic functionality of audio tools.

When the playback engine skips, clicks, or quits, for no discernible reason, that's unacceptable. No CPU problems. No drive problems. No other software running. Few tracks. No third party plugs in use. Etc. The other DAW software on that same system had no such problem (Tracktion, Reason, Cubase), the tracker software had no such problems (Renoise and others). Just Sonar. The only product that made a point of calling attention to "Gapless playback" in its marketing materials. Sonar lacked any feedback as to the cause. It was never solved and I'm not interested in troubleshooting this anymore(!!!!), i'm just referencing the problem.

If all of those "bugs" that people complain about were there,surely I would have encountered them after logging in so many hours at the coal face ?

Here is what i see as the crux of the problem in this thread: this statement appears to suggest that these bugs simply don't exist. That the users complaining about them are mistaken, somehow causing these problems for themselves, are "simply unlucky", or are lying. That is the kind of thing that sets me off big time. This is a core problem of interaction between people over technology. "I don't have that problem, so I kind of disbelieve in it". But wait, it's not just the technology realm. Example:

"My motorcycle noise/cigarette smoke doesn't bother me, you're just a whiner."

"I can't see a physical injury, so you mustn't be disabled; stop wasting my taxes."

"I don't experience racism/sexism, so I don't think it is as bad as people make it out to be."

Etc.

Even if the goal isn't to proclaim other users are liars, they are apt to be rather sensitive about the issue already (because it's posing problems for them). Saying "I don't experience that problem" seems fine on its own. It tells us that some configurations don't trigger the problem. But how does that really help someone after they've already troubleshot their issues for weeks, months, years, and found no solution? (I'm not necessarily referencing this thread). What if the same users keep being told "it's just you", repeatedly, with all the problems they experience? It's human to start to feel persecuted by the issue(s) and the people saying "We can't reproduce it, so it must be you somehow". Anger ensues. Solution: avoid dismissive language when trying to "help" people. Huge problem in human communication.

But I haven't and I'm really happy to use Sonar X3e Pro x64...

I'm not just happy for you, I'm envious. I spent way too much time and money on Cakewalk to not be emotional about the overall experience (especially in light of my financial status today). I keep promising myself not to engage in Cakewalk threads anymore but I can't seem to keep that promise long term. Especially when I'm having a bad day and seeing someone else in the same position I was in (frustrated with a Sonar behavior and being advised that it's somehow their own fault).

It's not a hobby - I rely on it - and I have dabbled with a few of the other offerings out there,but I like the program a lot...

I want to like Sonar. I used to like it. This is why the subject is even more emotionally triggering. It felt important to me, I was [stupidly] loyal to Cakewalk, and Sonar was a critical feature of my musical growth. But it eventually hindered me more than it helped and I stopped giving Cakewalk the benefit of the doubt that they'd finally get their shit together "THIS time".

It does everything I need - and more - and I intend using it for quite some time yet...

I've always appreciated the features it offered (a few of which were absent on competitors' DAWs) but I often found them to be tedious and even broken. I'd reference a couple examples, but I don't want to hear all the excuses some people might make as to why those aren't acceptable examples. Been there, done that elsewhere, and the dismissive attitudes of other people pissed me off.

Anyway, I'm not here to take from you your successful positive experience. I'm trying to stop people without negative experiences from taking away the legitimacy of those people that DO have negative experiences. Honestly, if I had more value in my life (or the resources/opportunity to create value), I wouldn't be doing this either.

[trimph1]

At least we don't have John T or Daveny5 telling people how stupid they are for complaining in first place.

I REMEMBER those helpers running the board at the cakewalk forum back in the day.

Ssssshhh!!!!! Not here, please!!!!

[trimph1]

Cakewalk's forum was a gladiator pit. You really had to be a real hardcore to deal with some characters there.

[excessional]

I suppose the way to deal with this for anyone thinking about getting Sonar is just download the demo and see if it works on your system..

I have a vanilla i5 laptop with on-chip soundcard.
I just downloaded ASIO4ALL and it works absolutely fine - no clicks, dropouts or crashes (there was an issue with multiple legacy version of Synthmaster but this was solved by a clean re-install of that VST).
It works for me flawlessly with 3 different midi controllers and 170 odd plug-ins.

Your mileage may vary, but it's easy enough to test it before you buy....

Of course occasional PC users will always have nightmare conflicts/issues crop up - that's the nature of PCs and bloody irritating it can be too.

But to go on and on for post after post about the rather abtruse technical problems that one user is having would make the reader of this thread think Sonar is much less stable than it is.

No PC software is perfect, but the community view would usually be that Sonar is much more stable than say FL12 - stability is generally seen a plus point for Sonar, along with good value for money.

[BBFG#]

I moved over to Sonar after having some problems with Steinberg support.
(They have since apologized for their unresponsiveness and resolved what was happening, but I still didn't go jumping back).
I had no problem with Sonar X2, but I don't think I pushed it as hard as others who were having problems with it. I did however, tire of the updates - each giving me something different and having to move old files to the new version just to get back to what I was doing before the update. Made the move to X3, up to X3e and again with no problems other than having to find old X2 files and put them where X3 would find and load them properly. I really was at a point of that being the last version and started looking at going back to Cubase. Platinum enticed me with the XLN AD2 and so the price of the upgrade was a given for the freebies associated with it. I've gone back and forth with the updates on this one, but it's mostly favorable. It has reached a point where I finally see it as the most stable it's ever been and my only midge of a complaint now is them installing products I wanted left out in the first place with every update. (Which means having to go in and strip it again of unneeded junk).

Other than that, I can easily live with Sonar ATM.
However, I am ready to add Cubase back into my system as soon as they have another one of their 50% off sales. Their notation is far superior IMO.

[Jace-BeOS]

I suppose the way to deal with this for anyone thinking about getting Sonar is just download the demo and see if it works on your system..

Absolutely. Of course, Cakewalk tends to release the demo version considerably later than the paid version. On one hand, this lets them find out what users suffer on the new release so as to present a demo that's been updated to fix those problems. On the other hand, that's in Cakewalk's favor of marketing a more stable product to demo trial users, at the expense of their paying customers.

I have a vanilla i5 laptop with on-chip soundcard. I just downloaded ASIO4ALL and it works absolutely fine - no clicks, dropouts or crashes [...] It works for me flawlessly with 3 different midi controllers and 170 odd plug-ins.

Interesting. I constantly see happy Sonar users tell troubled Sonar users that ASIO4ALL and built-in sound devices are both bad ideas. Yet, it works great for you. Is Sonar optimized for motherboard audio chipsets and ASIO4ALL, but not for $1400 "professional" audio devices?

Your mileage may vary, but it's easy enough to test it before you buy....

Time-limited and save-disabled trials tend not to be enough for serious testing, but they do help. I'm unaware of which limits Sonar trials currently use.

Of course occasional PC users will always have nightmare conflicts/issues crop up - that's the nature of PCs and bloody irritating it can be too.

Indeed!

But to go on and on for post after post about the rather abtruse technical problems that one user is having would make the reader of this thread think Sonar is much less stable than it is.

And now you see why this subject is so polarized. Indeed, I might scare away a future Sonar user that wouldn't have any problems. Or I might save someone from a bloody irritating nightmare. I have yet to see any clear explanation for why so many users have mostly an okay time with Sonar, when myself and some others suffered so much. We are talking about people with comparable hardware and software configurations that are having utterly opposite experiences. Why? With no answer forthcoming, it makes both sides seem like liars and there's anger.

No PC software is perfect, but the community view would usually be that Sonar is much more stable than say FL12 - stability is generally seen a plus point for Sonar, along with good value for money.

I've not used FL Studio much, but its playback is certainly Gapless on my system, and it didn't crash on me during my limited use of it. Its GUI is way smoother, more responsive, and glitch-free compared to my Sonar experience. I also don't pay for bug fixes like I have with 7 versions of Sonar. [shrug]

[vintagevibe]

At least we don't have John T or Daveny5 telling people how stupid they are for complaining in first place.

I REMEMBER those helpers running the board at the cakewalk forum back in the day.

Don't worry, others will always be there to insult and attack you. It's the new Cakewalk! It's just what they do.

[vespesian]

Don't worry, others will always be there to insult and attack you. It's the new Cakewalk! It's just what they do.

I think it's clear that, between Mr. A's messianic lectures-to-oblivion and that "Dr." who clearly suffers from some hitherto undiagnosed personality disorder, the forums are now just as bad or actually worse than they were before, TBH.

(Oh - and btw - Sonar is not "gapless". Try inserting a vsti while the transport is running. Yes, I know about the playback buffer fix).

[trimph1]

Don't worry, others will always be there to insult and attack you. It's the new Cakewalk! It's just what they do.

I think it's clear that, between Mr. A's messianic lectures-to-oblivion and that "Dr." who clearly suffers from some hitherto undiagnosed personality disorder, the forums are now just as bad or actually worse than they were before, TBH.

(Oh - and btw - Sonar is not "gapless". Try inserting a vsti while the transport is running. Yes, I know about the playback buffer fix).

Playback buffer fix is definitely a fix of the worgn kind.

Oh, and remember, any new update will replace some bugs with entirely new ones!!!