Ilok busted?

[2ZrgE]

How do we know it works? - Most checks display a link to our website. They click, Google Analytics tracks. Many buy.

I still fail to see how you can track that (probably because i don't know enough about these things). Are those links unique to the checks you built into the software? Does Google Analytics show you the IP adress, or any other "ID" of the person who clicked on the link in the warezed version? How do you know that it's exactly that person who buys then?

No problem with cookies, that's why a lot of people clean their browsers after surf sessions...

Normally you have to be informed about the use of cookies, at least in Germany, but as I have never seen that U-he time bomb I cannot verify that.

So if a warez user clicks the bait and does not delete his cookies, he can be identified even if he buys the soft a couple of weeks later. The whole SEO industry relies on that kind of tracking, it's rather easy to implement.

[Lotuzia]

... We have a concept of dealing with piracy once it happens. People who use iLok don't.

101% false. You seem to assume that companies using Ilok can't cumulate anti-piracy methods, in addition to Ilok. And should rely exclusively on Ilok. This is not exact : I know at least one company that does exactly that. And another one implementing it. Cumulating such systems might be the better solution. At the very least, it's a method that could be considered.

There are many methods to fight p.racy. Some are hybrids. World is not black n white.

[Urs]

How do we know it works? - Most checks display a link to our website. They click, Google Analytics tracks. Many buy.

I still fail to see how you can track that (probably because i don't know enough about these things). Are those links unique to the checks you built into the software? Does Google Analytics show you the IP adress, or any other "ID" of the person who clicked on the link in the warezed version? How do you know that it's exactly that person who buys then?

I don't know how Google Analytics works, but I guess it's got something to do with cookies. The links in our UI have parameters added, such as "?pf=Win" to identify those clicks, you can try by clicking on the u-he logo in any of our current plug-ins. The links displayed during busted cracks have other parameters. It's no voodoo.

I don't think we have any ID of these people. That would probably be against any privacy policy. We just have "they came from that and that crack" and "they bought".

[chk071]

Ok, cool, i didn't know about that. With "ID", i didn't really mean their personal details, rather, as you wrote, info which can identify them as the same person who used the warez, when they click that link, or buy the software.

[Compyfox]

How do we know it works? - Most checks display a link to our website. They click, Google Analytics tracks. Many buy.

Minimum effort for maximum return from the warez scene.

This was brought up many times before in the other locked/moved/deleted threads.


Your C/P scheme works out for you. And you're one of the rare people that openly talk about this.
So if you don't mind the following question:


Would you say that piracy is doing more harm to the industry, or actually continuing to "back" it on the long run?

I mean, we have probably all read about these massive, blown up articles that "sharing platforms killed the music industry", yet we're still flooded with quick money-grab productions rather than being able to listen to the rare/good independent acts/musicians. Prices also went up (recent record I saw: 1,49EUR per song DLC! Compressed to sh*t, with heavy DRM still engaged! Streaming services also restrict you to "keep your content legit", including the recent audio book craze). And actually, one major band did get popular in the first place thanks to sharing: Linkin Park, Bieber also only got popular due to YT's old "viral video" sharing. And don't let me get started on Rebecca Black (from Turd to Gold, now with an own YT channel). Same can also be said for the Movie Industry (which on the long run changed the "selling game" for the better - 3-4 months post movie release are BD releases for 15-20bucks, yet Movie Tickets are still a ripoff with nearly 15 bucks plus 3D and extended screen time, "only in-house snacks allowed" per person not included).


Which brings me back to the old concept of "warez" and sharing them:
- making uncrippled demos (or offering demos in the first place)
- spreading the word about the company


I understand that it's still a two edged blade. But if we talk that open about it (hopefully), then maybe we should look at all angles of this whole thing. Not just the negative ones.

Pointing out that "cracking" does add to the (greatly summed up by aMUSEd) "arms race" in terms of improving non-intrusive C/P is something I'd consider as positive.



Again, this is what the Chaos Computer Club also stood up for in the last decades:
Finding exploits of a system, then addressing it to their creators in hope that they fix it/improve on it.

Can we say, that this is highly selective yet extensive beta testing for/of the licensing system?
Sure does give this whole topic a different angle in this case.

[Urs]

... We have a concept of dealing with piracy once it happens. People who use iLok don't.

101% false. You seem to assume that companies using Ilok can't cumulate anti-piracy methods, in addition to Ilok. And should rely exclusively on Ilok. This is not exact : I know at least one company that does exactly that. And another one implementing it. Cumulating such systems might be the better solution. At the very least, it's a method that could be considered.

There are many methods to fight p.racy. Some are hybrids. World is not black n white.

Cool! I'll have an eye on the warez forums an watch out for cracks that stop working then.

[BERFAB]

I have always been (and still am) impressed by Urs' rather healthy philosophy when it comes to dealing with warez issues. As far as I can tell, he really is turning lemons into lemonade by embracing the shear inevitability of it all.

I recall quite a while ago when he developed the melting GUI for Zebra and other products, and shared the technique here on KVR with other devs. This was subsequently followed, quite comically, by several frantic posts from some Zebra "owners" requesting assistance with their disappearing U-he vsts. You can't make this stuff up.

Peace. And may your new year be your most profitable yet.

-B

[Urs]

Would you say that piracy is doing more harm to the industry, or actually continuing to "back" it on the long run?

That was too many words for me, but to be clear:

Software piracy is a bad thing. It's a parallel industry and exploit scheme that has nothing to do with fairness.

If I want advertisement, I pay for it and decide myself how, where and for whom I do this. I don't need uploaders to do it for me.

However, software piracy is a reality. It needs to be faced. I decided to have some fun while doing that

[Lotuzia]

... We have a concept of dealing with piracy once it happens. People who use iLok don't.

101% false. You seem to assume that companies using Ilok can't cumulate anti-piracy methods, in addition to Ilok. And should rely exclusively on Ilok. This is not exact : I know at least one company that does exactly that. And another one implementing it. Cumulating such systems might be the better solution. At the very least, it's a method that could be considered.

There are many methods to fight p.racy. Some are hybrids. World is not black n white.

Cool! I'll have an eye on the warez forums an watch out for cracks that stop working then.

Like you said, I agree that no method is 101% safe, or is eternally safe to be more precise. But still, we can try to disturb them a bit

Else I dont think that the Ilok recent thing will change something in a significant way. Honnest people will remain honnest, and less honnest people won't probably think twice before entering the dark side of the force. Ilok will react more or less soon, and world will continue to turn more/less round.

I believe that fighting p.racy is also a lot about education. A lof of my childdren friends p.rate movies, music aso and are not even really aware it's stealing. They just prefer not to be too much aware of it. Here lies the more potential for companies imho. No guarantee I might be right here though

[Compyfox]

Would you say that piracy is doing more harm to the industry, or actually continuing to "back" it on the long run?

That was too many words for me, but to be clear:

Software piracy is a bad thing. It's a parallel industry and exploit scheme that has nothing to do with fairness.

If I want advertisement, I pay for it and decide myself how, where and for whom I do this. I don't need uploaders to do it for me.

Fair enough.

Maybe I still try to see good sides in this whole thing as well. As I said several times at this point: crippled demos, no demos at all, then the highly ethical concept of "continuing a dropped license (C/R)", etc.

I don't want to see this as fully black and white still. Many shades in between, and different sides to a medal as well.

However, software piracy is a reality. It needs to be faced. I decided to have some fun while doing that

Also a fair point.

And if it helps improve other flaws - then it's a win-win situation, no?

[Urs]

And if it helps improve other flaws - then it's a win-win situation, no?

What "other flaws" does piracy help to improve?

There is no win-win situation with piracy. Only one side is ever the winner. We try to make this us and our customers.

[Compyfox]

This may sound like a strange argument, but I've read of several instances in recent years, where cracked modules actually improved the workflow (the SX3 example comes to mind again).

I also seem to remember some cases of cracks being also utilized as mass testing, which in turn showed flaws in the tool that were otherwise not discovered. (seen from the corner of the eye years ago).


Again, I'm not condoning/supporting this scene (and all the negative things involved with it), but I also don't want to condemn it either.

I've seen both sides of the medal. And there are still cases of Warez users that still buy the tools that they "tested" this way. Or were able to test at all. (I did pay my fair share of money on wrong advertised tools abd especially samples as well - these days I'm happy fir Rekkerd and BPB)

Still valid arguments from all corners of the room.

[robotmonkey]

Like you said, I agree that no method is 101% safe, or is eternally safe to be more precise. But still, we can try to disturb them a bit

Else I dont think that the Ilok recent thing will change something in a significant way. Honnest people will remain honnest, and less honnest people won't probably think twice before entering the dark side of the force. Ilok will react more or less soon, and world will continue to turn more/less round.

I believe that fighting p.racy is also a lot about education. A lof of my childdren friends p.rate movies, music aso and are not even really aware it's stealing. They just prefer not to be too much aware of it. Here lies the more potential for companies imho. No guarantee I might be right here though

The main thing about fighting piracy is not to forget that you should not get your users caught in a crossfire. A lot of developers seem to forget it. Tone2 is a great example of it as the guy seems to be so paranoid and anal about CP that is software is turning basically malware. That kind of behavior is off putting enough for me to avoid purchasing anything from that developer.

You might come out with the most secure CP but if it annoys me as a paying customer too much then I'm going to think "f*ck it, not going to buy that sh1t" and that's it. Also if the cost will fall on the shoulders of paying users like it does currently in a significant way with iLok, then I just don't see those plugins having great value compared to the many alternatives.

Pirating has very little to do with education - proven in many studies about the topic. Only people who might not know that pirating is bad are the ones who are completely computer illiterate. Majority knows very well what is pirating, they just do not ascribe to it such a moral significance like some anti-piracy propaganda organizations tend to do (like the idiotic you would not steal a car analogy). And even the developers themselves certainly do tend to download a piece of cracked software once and while, like many have admitted (most recent example being the guy from Empirical Labs on Gearslutz a day or two ago). The unfortunate thing about human behaviour is that there's necessarily not a connection between knowing and doing.

[robotmonkey]

... We have a concept of dealing with piracy once it happens. People who use iLok don't.

101% false. You seem to assume that companies using Ilok can't cumulate anti-piracy methods, in addition to Ilok. And should rely exclusively on Ilok. This is not exact : I know at least one company that does exactly that. And another one implementing it. Cumulating such systems might be the better solution. At the very least, it's a method that could be considered.

There are many methods to fight p.racy. Some are hybrids. World is not black n white.

What is interesting about that is how far can you go without making it too costly when it comes to development time, system resources and annoyance to the users. Some of the music software has supposedly over 50% of it's code devoted to CP. That is an huge waste of system resources. I'm glad that Urs can do his CP with only couple of lines but the above mentioned Cubase is a good example how CP could severely affect performance and stability. And it's not the only one as there are know to be other plugins out there of which have half of its size taken up by CP code. Consider a ~60mb plugin which has ~30mb of CP code. That is a huge waste of computing resources for paying users if one loads many instances of such plugins.

[toothnclaw]

they didn't fully remove the copy protection. It takes a bit longer to set off and it doesn't let us track busts, but we've seen promising posts on forums.