Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[Ah_Dziz]

Yeah. I usually just try to view amp sims like Amplitude or GR or whatever as a big dumb multi effect. You'll have none of the electric effects of loading (massive changes in bandwidth and levels) and thermal noise in those digital environments, So having a proper input with proper impedance gets you a DI guitar tone with minimal noise and an optimal s/n ratio . After that there's very little to configure other than gain. Most of these things will have waveshapers throughout and that means having your signal properly biased at the input is imperative. It's worth fiddling with some more open ended solutions to figure out how various processing responds to various ranges of dynamics on the input.

I do agree that people trying to sell premium products should get their shit together more than they do, but at the same time it's a relatively simple technical problem. All of the bits that are complicated will come before your ADC.

[Naillerz78]

I don’t really understand the “looking for new tones” people. How many amps are there, both currently in production and on the used market? How many gain, compressor, and EQ boxes are there? How many guitars? Pickups? Speakers? Now imagine the fact that most of those things have settings, often many. Oh, add microphones and mic placements and even room treatments. Next, let’s explore studio effects…

I hate to say it, but if you’re unable to find new sounds, it’s probably not that amp simulators aren’t exploring new designs.

Yes. Now imagine them ALL together in one software suite on your laptop.
And ALL sounding Bad to you despite every tweak u are advised to do.
And ALL the people telling you it’s your own damn fault cos you’re an idiot. Cos it sounds amazing on their side.

I am unable to find inspiration. Period.
After trying 100+ of them , since time.

Cos it ALL still sounds the same, despite everything touted as being a “game -changer” every year , since time.
And chasing my tail for hundreds of hours (maybe thousands) like thousands of other users have and still do today (at the ‘cutting edge’ of the tech)

It’s all a scam and a sales psyche trick bro.
That there exists a video of Rhett Shull messing with and debating the ‘right’ settings to get his top tier sims to sound ‘correct’ in 2025 is a clear sign of that. That should not exist 15 + years into the software. That’s the basics.

Ps ZC - what’s the new “game changer” touted now in 2025? Fluid IRs is it?
Hey what’s ur opinion on that - do you think it will “change the game”?

[Naillerz78]

Anyway thanks for all the replies to my rants so far guys . I need to get some stuff off my chest about my sim experience obvs.

I’ve laid out all the tangible evidence I can find and from experience about why I believe sims don’t cut it and sound different to the source object they are modelled on and claim to represent as “indistinguishable “ from.
The prosecution now rests and Court adjourned (lol)

Closing statement allegorical scenario.
Tesla releases a new car .
It’s a modelling car. The advertise it as modelling the driving experience of 10 top sports cars.
People buy it. The people who own the sports cars drive and review and say it doesn’t drive like those cars. The remaining owners say that point doesn’t even matter now, it drives GREAT to me. It’s just generally a great drive, regardless.

Now does it really matter that Tesla used false advertising to sell the product and that the whole thing is a bit of a scam to make car sales.. or not?
Is this a clear example of the Bait and Switch sales technique ?

I guess that’s up to you.
(Oh I forgot - Tesla said the reason why the sports car owning drivers didnt feel the same experience is cos they gotta calibrate the steering wheel, (those idiots) but there’s no clear agreed method to do so. It definitely delivers if you calibrate the steering wheel.)

Anyway I’m going to roll on and try profiling sims with one last hope. (This is also the commitment and consistency principle of sales in action.)

[stoopicus]

I’ve laid out all the tangible evidence I can find and from experience about why I believe sims don’t cut it and sound different to the source object they are modelled on and claim to represent as “indistinguishable “ from.

Chasing after tonal fidelity to the original hardware has been a source of unhappiness for purists for at least 50 years, probably more. Amp and guitar reissues are old as dirt at this point. Shit, I own two reissues that are rare "vintage" instruments now themselves.

Every time a reissue or something similar is released there's a huge wankfest somewhere on the internet about how they differ from the originals.

Does a SVT-CL sound exactly like a (more) vintage SVT? Who cares, it's awesome.
Did the 5150 sound just like a SLO-100, which was EVH's goal? Who cares, it's awesome.
Exactly the same is true of SVT-VR or Amplifikation Lancaster. They are great on their own, even if not exactly like an Ampeg or Vox.

This phenomenon has nothing to do with modeling or sims, except in that sometimes (not always) they also advertise their relationship to the original as a goal.

Again, all that matters: Do they sound good to you? Do they fit in well with your workflow? If not, then use something else.

[glokraw]

I am unable to find inspiration. Period.
After trying 100+ of them , since time.

Inspiration comes from human experience. Art is our attempt to communicate something about experience. The effects of developing our artistic skills, while deepening our human experience, will show up with whatever tools are at our disposal. Recording music often helps to reveal the areas most in need of improvement. Mine are all dire except for the musical tools themselves
I need to be a better friend, a more generous and engaging 'stranger', and far more diligent at practicing. Had a nice interaction about music/musicianship with a friendly store checker, and the person next in line also chimed in, the little memories add up

[Naillerz78]

I am unable to find inspiration. Period.
After trying 100+ of them , since time.

Inspiration comes from human experience. Art is our attempt to communicate something about experience. The effects of developing our artistic skills, while deepening our human experience, will show up with whatever tools are at our disposal. Recording music often helps to reveal the areas most in need of improvement. Mine are all dire except for the musical tools themselves
I need to be a better friend, a more generous and engaging 'stranger', and far more diligent at practicing. Had a nice interaction about music/musicianship with a friendly store checker, and the person next in line also chimed in, the little memories add up

Yes I agree re inspiration coming from experience.
I have 20 years experience as a wannabe guitarist.
When I plug into sims I hear the guitar tones of “Nutbush City Limits” by Ike and Tina Turner.
I have no other reference to match to that from my 20 years of experience listening to music and playing guitar. Only the “Nutbush”. Unfortunately.

So I struggle to continue to create anything.
As I have no other reference in my brain to link that great Sim sound to.

And that’s the gods honest truth of my experience.

[Naillerz78]

Chasing after tonal fidelity to the original hardware has been a source of unhappiness for purists for at least 50 years, probably more.

Gah. This is annoying. When someone matches up the product to the claims from the Devs marketing that does not make them a purist.
When the claims are pretty grandiose to begin with. It’s a good idea to objectively test them.

Every time a reissue or something similar is released there's a huge wankfest somewhere on the internet about how they differ from the originals.

Agreed. Because of the claims the Devs and the sellers are making about the product. That it was modelled on a ‘59 Marshall Superbass classic amp- modelled in painstaking detail and sounds and reacts indistinguishable. And that usually it is a “game-changer”. Big claims+ big hype +big price = big disappointments. If they paid the money they are allowed to complain if it doesn’t deliver as promised.

Does a SVT-CL sound exactly like a (more) vintage SVT? Who cares, it's awesome.
Did the 5150 sound just like a SLO-100, which was EVH's goal? Who cares, it's awesome.
Exactly the same is true of SVT-VR or Amplifikation Lancaster. They are great on their own, even if not exactly like an Ampeg or Vox.

This phenomenon has nothing to do with modeling or sims, except in that sometimes (not always) they also advertise their relationship to the original as a goal.

Again, all that matters: Do they sound good to you? Do they fit in well with your workflow? If not, then use something else.

Well check out my car analogy in an earlier post.
That’s up to you personally if you care if the thing you bought isn’t actually the thing it was advertised to be.
I do care about it obvs.
I don’t like the feeling of getting scammed out of my money and time.

What do you mean here re relationship to original?
And tbh the whole premise of amp sims is re the relationship to the original . And still is across the board with them. Cos they need a reference and connection in the buyers head.

As an aside you are a bass player I’m presuming.
I’m a 6 stringer. It’s a different ball game . I can bend the strings more than you

[Uncle E]

Would anybody be interested in doing a "One Patch Challenge", where we all use the same Tonex patch to make songs? I'm pretty sure I could get IK to sponsor that and give free Tonex licenses to the winners.

[Naillerz78]

DP

[Naillerz78]

One more lil thing re this stuff that’s thrown into the debates
Re the Dweezil Zappa video comparison “which do u prefer?”
https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/gui ... -challenge

One big thing here- Dweezil Z is approaching rock guitar mastery level guitar skills He maybe is considered “virtuoso “ level . (? Dont know). He got his early lessons from EVH himself in his youth.

And masters can make the guitar and performance sound amazing through all sorts of ordinary gear.

So in that logic - I’ll pay no heed to judging the fidelity of gear played by him

[Naillerz78]

Also here is a great video demonstrating some of the things myself (and many others) have stated about sims. I think it’s a good reference as the tones are in isolation and played in quick succession without much effects. And it’s by the Dev so no user error is possible (right??)
So it’s easy to do a compare of all the models.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4NWj9C8j8_w

Now can you honestly tell me this is an accurate representation and emulation of how these actual tube guitar amplifiers sound ,recorded via a mic ?
( A lot of these amps I’ve never heard IRL btw)
For Real???
Do they REALLY sound that basic and that similar amp to amp recorded IRL? I cannot believe it.

And do you believe these ML amp sims have a different ‘tonality’ from sim to sim?
because to me they all kinda sound petty much the same.
Even the Vox. It’s like it’s all the one tonality, just different levels of gain and EQ settings sim to sim.(!)

To me these sounds are the same as LePou free plugs from like ..15 years ago. (?) if not lesser fidelity tbh.

This is a pretty clear example of the points I’m making on video. Thanks ML aoundlab

[zerocrossing]

I have both solid state amps, and now with the Yamaha preamp a digital amp, which disagrees with you. Transistors can add even-order harmonics when asymmetrical, and while I don't know how a digital amp works, harsh is about the last thing that comes to mind when playing the Yamaha though

I've had two transistor amps, a Marshall and an Ampeg. Both had great sound. I knew the Valvestate wasn't tube, but I honestly didn't realize the Ampeg was transistor based until I got home. I was just shopping by sound and it was the one I think sounded the best. It beat out a whole bunch of tube amps.

[zerocrossing]

I don’t record heavy metal material and don’t have a lot of experience with that genre. Perhaps I would have reached a different conclusion and required a different process in those situations.

I think amp sims are most popular I the heavy metal community, at least if you look at how many demos there are in that genera. It's funny, because early on, the biggest complaint about amp modelers were that they were great for clean and crunch tones, but terrible for high gain sounds.

[glokraw]

So I struggle to continue to create anything.
As I have no other reference in my brain to link that great Sim sound to.

And that’s the gods honest truth of my experience.

MT Power is a nice drum machine tool, donationware, with a nag screen, but lots of grooves and options. Just fire it up and start recording. Go through various sim presets, Axiom, Guitar Rig, Amplitude yada yada are good enough. Axiom has a handy 'Legends' menu, with lots of variety, and loads 3rd party 64bit plugins in it's chains, simple to craft excellent sounds. Keep your feet on the ground, press the record button, and 'be happy'.

[CapnLockheed]

Just use what you like and kwitcher bitchin. You want a tube amp? Play a tube amp? If you're happy with modelers/profilers play those. Guitarists have NEVER had more options to sculpt the tone they hear in their head. I'm old as dust. When I started playing we had FAR less choices. Somehow we made do. Personally, I'm overjoyed to have so many choices at my disposal. All that being said.....forget Dweezil....as FRANK said: "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar".