PG8X (inspired by the JX8P): new beta version uploaded

[martin_l]

I just played a bit with the plugin and found another problem.
Problem: The synth does not respond quickly enough to NoteOn/NoteOff events when sequenced in a host. This results in successive 16th notes being played as one long note. To see what i mean, get the attached archive. You will hear that everything is fine in Poly and Unison modes, but not in Mono mode.

I tried to reproduce it, but could not. Would you mind sending me the reaper project, or the midi file for that example, as well as the patch? I would like to see more detailled what is going on.

Thanks,
Martin

[Teksonik]

Polyphony number is not saved with a patch ?

For example I know I set the poly to 12 for "Padelishus" and re-saved today just to make sure but when you close then reopen PG8X it reverts back to poly 6.....

Just in case you missed it...............

[EvilDragon]

Two words only: NAILED IT!


That's the brownish tone of grey I was talking about!

Im glad to hear it.

Are the controls too dark or are they about OK too now?

The controls are just fine - great contrast. You nailed the buttons, too. I do think that you should try to fit "DEFAULT" and "RANDOM", and use PREV/NEXT instead of +/-, for clarity.

[martin_l]

The controls are just fine - great contrast. You nailed the buttons, too. I do think that you should try to fit "DEFAULT" and "RANDOM", and use PREV/NEXT instead of +/-, for clarity.

As I said before, I like these buttons, but for a future version, which will be closer to the JX-10. For the current PG-8X I would prefer something resembling the JX-8P.

[Teksonik]

I do think that you should try to fit "DEFAULT" and "RANDOM", and use PREV/NEXT instead of +/-, for clarity.

That's the brownish tone of grey I was talking about!

So everything has to be just according to how you want it?

As long as the Dragon is happy that's all that matters..............

[ENV1]

I tried to reproduce it, but could not. Would you mind sending me the reaper project, or the midi file for that example, as well as the patch?

Theyre small enough to be attached right here:

[ENV1]

The controls are just fine - great contrast. You nailed the buttons, too.

Excellent. I was afraid they might be a smidgen too dark now, but if you say theyre alright then ill just leave them like that.

I do think that you should try to fit "DEFAULT" and "RANDOM", and use PREV/NEXT instead of +/-, for clarity.

Putting the full words doesnt work out size-wise, even with that small fontsize.

But Prev/Next instead of the -/+ is not a bad idea, and there would be enough room too. However, i will probably put < > arrows instead (filled of course) because thats what the synth has. Will see what looks better.

[martin_l]

Polyphony number is not saved with a patch ?

For example I know I set the poly to 12 for "Padelishus" and re-saved today just to make sure but when you close then reopen PG8X it reverts back to poly 6.....

Just in case you missed it...............

Yup. Despite claiming that it is saved per preset, it is currently only saved per bank. Will be fixed in the next version...

[martin_l]

I just played a bit with the plugin and found another problem.
Problem: The synth does not respond quickly enough to NoteOn/NoteOff events when sequenced in a host. This results in successive 16th notes being played as one long note. To see what i mean, get the attached archive. You will hear that everything is fine in Poly and Unison modes, but not in Mono mode.

I tried to reproduce it, but could not. Would you mind sending me the reaper project, or the midi file for that example, as well as the patch? I would like to see more detailled what is going on.

Thanks,
Martin

OK. Finally, I had the time to check your example. Result: All is good.

The fact that the repeated notes are not triggering is due to the nature of your MIDI file: you painted the bass line by hand in the piano roll, giving rise to Note Off and following Note On events with exactly the same time stamp. In Poly mode, the synth reacts correctly (or I should say, as expected). The Mono modes of the PG-8X (and of the JX-8P) are using the legato mode (which in the JX-8P cannot be changed).

I just ran your MIDI file through my JX-8P, and it behaves in the same way. In fact, you can try that with any other VST which has a legato mono mode. You can easily fix the bass line by making the notes slightly shorter.

I am considering whether I should include a switch which allows a non-legato (i.e. retriggering) Mono mode. That would only require one more switch in the settings panel, but I need to rearrange things there anyway to make room for the number of voices.

Cheers,
Martin

[ENV1]

The fact that the repeated notes are not triggering is due to the nature of your MIDI file: you painted the bass line by hand in the piano roll, giving rise to Note Off and following Note On events with exactly the same time stamp.

Yes, it was quantized to 16ths.

(Like i said, the original bassline was made on a 303.)

But the problem is not only quantized notes in pianorolls. Its also and especially sequencers and arpeggiators that will cause this issue, and many of those cant be made to play shorter notes, they will just output perfect 16ths.

I just ran your MIDI file through my JX-8P, and it behaves in the same way. In fact, you can try that with any other VST which has a legato mono mode.

Well, thats just it. I do/did that a lot with all sorts of plugins (this bassline is one of my standard tests for years) and the only other synth i know of that does this one-long-note thing too is Arturias ARP 2600. There is no problem in legato mode with synths like Arturias minimoog, Charlatan, Rapture (which goes legato at Polyphony 0), and countless others. All of these only play legato when notes are actually overlapping, but never if there are note-off/note-on events at the ends and beginnings of a series of 16th notes.

I am considering whether I should include a switch which allows a non-legato (i.e. retriggering) Mono mode. That would only require one more switch in the settings panel, but I need to rearrange things there anyway to make room for the number of voices.

That would be most welcome.


As for the skin...i really want to do this for you, so i found me a way that allows me to make a fully functional UI while having full control over the sizes and positions of everything; namely SynthEdit. The plan is to make and finish the UI, then send you the SE project and all the image files so you can transfer everything to the plugin. Since youve done that before i think it should be fairly painless.

To see where i am right now check the screenshot. As you can see, ive ditched the color of the programmer, (i just couldnt stand it), and went with something that looks more like the synth itself, i.e. more metal and less plastic. I have also made everything a little larger so we can have decently sized printings. This also allowed me to make the fader-throw of the tall sliders precisely 100 pixels, which means since you are using 0-99 there will be 1 pixel of slider movement for every change of value. The sliders themselves have gotten a minimal touch of perspective to look less flat, and the buttons have been replaced with a first draft of membranes. Those will have to be made a little larger yet though because i dont think what i have in mind is going to work out at the size they are right now.

Let me know if you like it, (and especially whether you dont like any of it), and whether youd like to proceed in the proposed manner. If so, ill be glad to keep working on it and finish it.

click for fullsize

[AdmiralQuality]

The issue might be that the note-off and successive note-on are coming in at the EXACT SAME timestamp. (So, with the same deltaFrames value in the VST MIDI event structure. Meaning the same number of samples offset into the next process buffer.)

When this happens, which one is first is essentially undefined. (Though I'd argue they should be handled in the order the event array passed to processEvents has them in.) And I'd also argue that in that case, with not even a single sample of overlap time, that it's not legato playing, it's stacatto (and hence should be retriggered).

If the next note-on comes a single sample (or more) before the note-off for the previous note, then that's legato. Doing it this way solves this case. (Which is virtually impossible to play, except for freak accidents. It will only frequently happen from auto-generators like step sequencers and arpeggiators.)

[Doc Brown]

The fact that the repeated notes are not triggering is due to the nature of your MIDI file: you painted the bass line by hand in the piano roll, giving rise to Note Off and following Note On events with exactly the same time stamp.

Yes, it was quantized to 16ths.

(Like i said, the original bassline was made on a 303.)

But the problem is not only quantized notes in pianorolls. Its also and especially sequencers and arpeggiators that will cause this issue, and many of those cant be made to play shorter notes, they will just output perfect 16ths.

I just ran your MIDI file through my JX-8P, and it behaves in the same way. In fact, you can try that with any other VST which has a legato mono mode.

Well, thats just it. I do/did that a lot with all sorts of plugins (this bassline is one of my standard tests for years) and the only other synth i know of that does this one-long-note thing too is Arturias ARP 2600. There is no problem in legato mode with synths like Arturias minimoog, Charlatan, Rapture (which goes legato at Polyphony 0), and countless others. All of these only play legato when notes are actually overlapping, but never if there are note-off/note-on events at the ends and beginnings of a series of 16th notes.

I am considering whether I should include a switch which allows a non-legato (i.e. retriggering) Mono mode. That would only require one more switch in the settings panel, but I need to rearrange things there anyway to make room for the number of voices.

That would be most welcome.


As for the skin...i really want to do this for you, so i found me a way that allows me to make a fully functional UI while having full control over the sizes and positions of everything; namely SynthEdit. The plan is to make and finish the UI, then send you the SE project and all the image files so you can transfer everything to the plugin. Since youve done that before i think it should be fairly painless.

To see where i am right now check the screenshot. As you can see, ive ditched the color of the programmer, (i just couldnt stand it), and went with something that looks more like the synth itself, i.e. more metal and less plastic. I have also made everything a little larger so we can have decently sized printings. This also allowed me to make the fader-throw of the tall sliders precisely 100 pixels, which means since you are using 0-99 there will be 1 pixel of slider movement for every change of value. The sliders themselves have gotten a minimal touch of perspective to look less flat, and the buttons have been replaced with a first draft of membranes. Those will have to be made a little larger yet though because i dont think what i have in mind is going to work out at the size they are right now.

Let me know if you like it, (and especially whether you dont like any of it), and whether youd like to proceed in the proposed manner. If so, ill be glad to keep working on it and finish it.

click for fullsize

GUI looks awesome so far!

[EvilDragon]

HOLY SHIT!


This is great. The only thing I'm not fond of is "MWHL INT". Was better on the previous GUI iteration where it said "MOD DEPTH".

[martin_l]

The issue might be that the note-off and successive note-on are coming in at the EXACT SAME timestamp. (So, with the same deltaFrames value in the VST MIDI event structure. Meaning the same number of samples offset into the next process buffer.)

When this happens, which one is first is essentially undefined. (Though I'd argue they should be handled in the order the event array passed to processEvents has them in.) And I'd also argue that in that case, with not even a single sample of overlap time, that it's not legato playing, it's stacatto (and hence should be retriggered).

If the next note-on comes a single sample (or more) before the note-off for the previous note, then that's legato. Doing it this way solves this case. (Which is virtually impossible to play, except for freak accidents. It will only frequently happen from auto-generators like step sequencers and arpeggiators.)

Yes, that's what happens in this MIDI file. Different synth's interpret it in different ways. Retrigger mode (if present), always seems to give the expected result (as it should).

In Legato mode, I found some synth which do retrigger: e.g. Arturia Mini V, while others don't: Korg Legacy MS20, Poly-Ana (in legato mode), or in fact the hardware JX-8P.

The Midi Monitor, however shows that the Note Off seems to be sent before the next Note On (even if they have the same time stamp).

I will look into an additional Retrigger Mono mode (even though not present on the hardware).

[DrewDale]

click for fullsize

Very impressive looking skin
Where are the settings and options buttons going to go on the finished skin ?