KVR Audio

beej · Post by **beej** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:13 pm

Kriminal wrote:
beej wrote:Some people want the moon on a stick
do you get a free upgrade to Uranus?

For you, Krim... *absolutely*...

christianmusicmaker · Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:28 pm

Casar1973 wrote:Unless you're actually on welfare or in the unfortunate situation of counting peanuts (and I have nearly been there, so I understand perfectly if one is squeezed in the middle)- yes that is hard to understand.

From your point of view someone must be on welfare to disagree with your comments on Omni's pricing structure? I really hope that is not what you mean but even if you think "not getting it" in your opinion = "he must be on welfare" then..wow. What can I say? I find that view point an insult frankly as will likely many others.

By the way I am not on welfare or counting peanuts. Not even close. HTH.

But if we're talking common reality there is not so much of a debate. Your leverage is to choose to buy it or not.

But also it appears I should know better than to start a thread on KVR and have a different opinion about Omni related matters, you missed that part.

When did you decide that what you feel you should pay is what everybody else should adjust to? What are the economics for your judgment of what is "more than necessary"?

Sorry with your incredible "Welfare" mentality towards those that don't "get Omni's" pricing I doubt any explanations I offer would suffice. You will though find answers in my previous posts if you are that interested.

Your point of view is valid, because it is yours, but nobody is obliged to agree with it.

Your sarcasm earlier or as it appears genuine viewpoint on welfare suggest to me you need to read this very carefully yourself again.

Your point of view is valid, because it is yours, but nobody is obliged to agree with it.

The price appears to me personally as far more than decent and my impression is that the company is conducting business in a most agreeable manner.

Well thankfully (was losing hope) we do agree on something, not that we had to of course.

beej wrote: He meant "terrific" as in "you won't lose money buy buying Atmos first" and it was pretty reasonable to expect the upgrade price would be the difference between the two instruments - and you interpreted "terrific" as meaning "I can buy Atmo and use this as a way to get OS much cheaper than retail".

Which was, well, rather naive, really... in my opinion, of course.

Not so beej.

My initial reaction to the pricing was mainly based on the £249 pricing on offer from gear for music (you saw my post but the site was updated before you made a reference to it being £299) at that point the discount was definitely much better...I said *nothing* else at that point outside of a single post (reply to you) about the difference in price between Omni and Alchemy...a totally harmless comment until...

...Cesar and Koala really decided they had to put CMM in his place with their needless comments *that* is what I was really bothered with and responded to along with the driving desire to get my full agreement for some unknown reason. Perhaps I should charge for it then offer it.

Eric offered to refund the difference for anyone who pays more than they should (or should I say more than the full price of Omni) which is not even what I was looking for but more than solves any issues I had. Remember I already said I would get Alchemy first and maybe Omni later...no bashing or sarcasm.

koalaboy wrote: Getting two products for the price of one is pretty terrific.

Totally agree.

pdxindy wrote: Since this is a thread about Alchemy first, and at most a comparison thread, can the discussion of price go to one of the many Omnisphere threads that have proliferated on kvr? thanks

Not a bad idea (at least for a bit).

Anyway I will post my thoughts on Alchemy and Omni (Of course anyone else feel free to do the same) now that both specs are available at some point tomorrow based on *my* needs feature wise , I might mention price but only the difference between the two products not what Omni's pricing structure might be or not (which I am quite happy with now) so lets end that one please.e.t.c

Mods...thanks for not locking this thread. I am sure your fingers were close to the "lock" button.

Anyway to Cesar, Koalaboy...and KoolKeys

Ok...Ok... lets end this properly please...

Look sorry guys...meant no harm Omni is a fantastic product and the Gear for music pricing threw me a bit but that has changed and Eric had added further clarification.. again apologies to all for any offense. None meant.

Sometimes you will get some rough and tumble on KVR

I guess the key is how one responds to it. I think that was my first big fight on KVR or was it my second

5bongo5 · Post by **5bongo5** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:31 pm

To be honest, we're kind of stunned at the KvR reaction on this.

Well, to be fair, I wouldn't mistake this unexpected amount of noise for "the KVR reaction." Seems more just a handful of people posting over and over and over again.

I personally thought the VIP upgrade was fantastic, and much appreciated. (Now I can buy both!)

But the positive reactions on the release probably won't come in for a few days, when we finally get our hands on it and start playing!

cheers,
--bongo

[/quote]

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:34 pm

christianmusicmaker wrote:
Anyway to Cesar, Koalaboy...and KoolKeys

Ok...Ok... lets end this properly please...

Look sorry guys...meant no harm Omni is a fantastic product and the Gear for music pricing threw me a bit but that has changed and Eric had added further clarification.. again apologies to all for any offense. None meant.

Sometimes you will get some rough and tumble on KVR I guess the key is how one responds to it. I think that was my first big fight on KVR or was it my second

Obviously, it's nothing personal from my end. I hope you know that! Opinions will clash sometimes, even if your doesn't make sense!

LOL, sorry!

Brent

Casar1973 · Post by **Casar1973** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:41 pm

christianmusicmaker wrote: Anyway to Cesar, Koalaboy...and KoolKeys

Ok...Ok... lets end this properly please...

I'd be happy to.

No, you didn't get the spirit of my post and I feel there is no apparent point in trying to explain it. So let's proceed with the Scope and Purpose intended.

spikey · Post by **spikey** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:43 pm

I dunno, maybe we shouldn't do upgrades at all. Reactions like this definitely make you wonder if its worth all the trouble we go through to do it.

I havent posted here in a while, but this beats all.

Some of you really need to THINK about what yer saying here, instead of using your fingers as a megaphone for stupidity research. *Way to go* you moronic one way Einsteins.

You just upset and pissed off one of the best synth makers on the market today, who BOTHERS to even come in here and tell us whats happening at HIS level, and NOW you have him wondering if its even worth the effort to give us breaks on upgrades, or even do any more upgrades. Brilliant!

Tell ya what chief, You keep making um like Trilogy, RMX and Omni, and DONT listen to these ppl Spectrum. The VIP deal was a shocking good deal I thought. But then, some here would gripe if you beat um with a new stick, which in this case is EXACTLY what some of them need atm....

Please keep up the good work. And THANKS for the fun and pleasure I have received from playing Spectrasonics Virtual synths over the years.

iaminsane+ · Post by **iaminsane+** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:53 pm

spikey wrote:
I dunno, maybe we shouldn't do upgrades at all. Reactions like this definitely make you wonder if its worth all the trouble we go through to do it.

I havent posted here in a while, but this beats all. Some of you really need to THINK about what yer saying here, instead of using your fingers as a megaphone for stupidity research. *Way to go* you moronic one way Einsteins. You just upset and pissed off one of the best synth makers on the market today, who BOTHERS to even come in here and tell us whats happening at HIS level, and NOW you have him wondering if its even worth the effort to give us breaks on upgrades, or even do any more upgrades. Brilliant!

Tell ya what chief, You keep making um like Trilogy, RMX and Omni, and DONT listen to these ppl Spectrum. Some here would gripe if you beat um with a new stick, which in this case is EXACTLY what some of them need....

Please keep up the good work!

true that!

christianmusicmaker · Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:59 pm

koolkeys wrote:Obviously, it's nothing personal from my end. I hope you know that! Opinions will clash sometimes, even if your doesn't make sense!

LOL, sorry!

Brent

It's cool Brent.

Casar1973 wrote:I'd be happy to.

No, you didn't get the spirit of my post and I feel there is no apparent point in trying to explain it. So let's proceed with the Scope and Purpose intended.

Yeah a definite misunderstanding sorry

Ack! I should be in bed

exode_sound · Post by **exode_sound** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:14 am

I think that both instruments look incredibly interesting from a sound designers perspective. I'm sure that any user will be happy with either or even both.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:59 am

frankly, I can't wait for the reviews on both.........so sick of "sonnox supressor" and "m audio firewire something or other" hogging all my magazines

thestranger · Post by **thestranger** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:24 am

Ummmm system requirements:

Omni disk space needed 50GB
That other one, disk space needed 3GB

(So even if only 1/5 of Omni is amazing its still winning)

Other then that I would buy Omni for the Arp alone, oh and bought Atmos, Trilogy and RMX, turns out I am a VIP - so get a nice fat discount

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:28 am

afterwerk wrote:Neither are out yet, and I can't see how Alchemy could even touch Omnisphere.

so neither are out yet, but you have a solid opinion on which is best already...good work numpty...

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:35 am

Almost 200 votes thanks guys and if you have not already voted feel free to add your vote

Interesting stats.

I think pdxindy made a point earlier about this being a thread about Alchemy first and a comparison thread second (not an exact quote) I think that is about right as it really is about Alchemy and what it offers as a genuine alternative to Omni. The Poll provides a great basis to quickly see other views on that.

Anyway...with *so many* threads already running on Omni (including one I even started myself back in January when Omni info first surfaced)I think I'll spotlight Alchemy a bit more, also it is clearly of more interest to KVR members (that have voted in the poll).

No it's not an Omni free zone all of sudden, I certainly more than welcome comments + answers to questions from anyone including Eric on Omni,and of course Ben on Alchemy. Thanks for the clarification earlier about Omni, Eric.

Ok...

I want to go through some of the info Ben has posted and post some of it here for easier reference (again there are plenty of Omni threads now with highly useful feedback from Glen and Eric already) the poll suggests more interest in Alchemy though and the focus of this thread is about Alchemy first so here goes...

Obligatory splash screen

I noticed that there does not appear to be a full screen image of Alchemy on Camel site...an image yes, but not full screen AFAICT...this one below is the KVR product image. Much better...

Scroll and smile

Here is some additional info from Ben on Alchemy (from other threads)

Copy protection is via keyfile personalised to your particular details.

We've tried very hard to make Alchemy work on many different levels. At the simplest level, you can browse the presets and use the performance controls which are assigned to the most tweakable parameters for the given sound. If you want to go a little deeper, you have immediate access to most important parameters for all four sources, along with filters and master parameters. There are then two further levels of detail you can look at. So Alchemy is good for both preset tweakers and people who want to get into detail. We'll explain more about this in upcoming videos.

The performance controls are really cool - you can actually do a lot of the stuff you use KORE for, right within Alchemy. Presets are set up with performance parameters for easy tweaking. The knobs can even work like four way switches or whatever you like, thanks to the flexible modulation system. You can also morph between multiple sets of performance parameters.

Regarding the patch format, we went with our own dedicated text based patch format - it has a lot of advantages in terms of making the presets open, and editable by other applications. We've tried to make everything as open as possible, as some of the utiliies that were released for Cameleon made a big difference to the functionality, and we want to encourage the same kind of thing with Alchemy. Urs has a similar kind of text based format, and also supports fxp as an option, so I'm definitely happy to look at including such an option in the future.

Alchemy will supersede Cameleon, however we'll keep supporting Cameleon on new platforms for the forseeable future - it just won't get new features. I think you will be happy with the additive resynthesis quality in Alchemy
Actually, Alchemy does have waveshaping - you can select a variety of waveshaping functions as filter types. Its true it doesn't do FM, but the additive engine can do pretty much everything that an FM synth can, so I don't think you'll miss it much.

Yes - the resynthesis is much, much better than Cameleon. You can resynthesise speech and it sounds pretty close to the original - but of course you can manipulate it in a lot of interesting ways you can't with other representations. The additive engine is still orientated towards resynthesising single notes, not chords - but I think other resynthesis techniques are a better choice for that kind of material anyway. We'll do a demo of the additive and other resynthesis techniques applied to speech next week sometime.

Each of the four sources has an additive, spectral and granular engine. The additive engine can also be switched into VA mode, and the granular engine can be switched into normal sampler mode. You can combine all three engines, with the restriction that only one of them can reference a file - but given that each source can use different synthesis methods, its not a restriction - certainly none of the sound designers have complained about it - and they usually want more of everything

Yup - Alchemy does 'true' additive synthesis. Its a much more powerful additive synth than Cameleon - but also does a lot of other stuff.

I think I will post my own key areas of interest in Alchemy later, looking at the spec sheet again I totally overlooked some aspects like this...

Spectral Synthesizer

phase vocoder analysis for high quality pitch and time stretching

noise resynthesis mode using 256 band noise shaping

advanced graphical sonogram editing - choose from a range of brushes and select the colour and opacity

graphical spectral cut, copy and paste - cut or copy and paste specific frequency and time regions

Impressive!

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:56 am

Igro · Post by **Igro** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:11 pm

It is cool, but waveshapers in filter section is not the perfect idea. It will bring some restriction in sound design. I thought, that there could be created serial chain(not less than three) of waveshapers to get cool sounds. If two slots will be reserved for waveshapers, then you stay without filters. I think, that best place for waveshapers could be in LFO-Envelope section. Just my 2 cents.

KVR Audio

Alchemy: Features, discussion e.t.c

Which do you prefer?