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jancivil wrote:John and I have a backstory. He's taken time out of his life to ridicule me publicly. I have gone at him. I know what he has said and what I said about the prior thrust is not inaccurate. So you agree with that. You are taking the opportunity to be personally critical out of what, that you have a different point of view? You strongly feel you're right, at what I think is the same quality as me on the opposite side.
What is specifically arrogant about what I said? I have had it with the childish trolling of Tricky Loops and I finally said something?

What are you doing for the community piling on me? You got bruised during argumentation, yours isn't very good here. If you're very delicate, being argumentative for the sake of it is an odd thing to do. Is that mean? Is you trying, not for the first time, to shame me for stating my opinion strongly very kind?
I'm aware of the backstory to a good extent, and I think once again you are missing the core element of the criticism as your knee jerk response is denial in pretty much every case.

My opinion may be the other side of the coin, but that doesn't mean that personal criticism is opportunistic, it is simply the same cause and effect that has gone before. Perhaps rather than focus narrowly on specific instances of people leveling an arrogance criticism you should consider your overall demeanor - do you really feel that you are singled out for personal attack? Could it not be that there is an element of truth in what people say and that it is at least worthy of consideration?

You ask what I am doing for the community? For a start I would at least like to stand beside those at whom you spit your vitriol. It is certainly not an effective way of making any point, and you would be far better served by taking a step back before snapping back any reaction. Secondly I do feel that my voice is equally as important as anyone voicing an opinion opposite to mine, and if it is something that is a pet hate then I will join in. Contrary to your opinion that my comments are opportunistic attacks against you, in the most recent cases they are defending my position that exclusivity has no place in music. While I might join in with the 'tracne' jokes, I would never criticize anyone's standing as a musician because of the genre or method of creating music.

There is nothing mean or unkind about what I say beyond reacting to what in some cases is mean spirited on your part, an when it isn't, something that in my mind warrants calling you out for your behavior.
Last edited by robogone on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jancivil wrote:
robojam wrote:
jancivil wrote:But this 'arrogant' emphasis, and I am talking down to someone, is just personal bile
Not really. John is not alone in saying this, and it is never said to you except in response to very specific things you post.

I'm tempted to add that it's arrogant to say that you are right and everyone else is wrong, but I'm sure that would go over your head just as much as the other comments about arrogance that you elicit.

You really could do much more for this community if only you would stop being so in denial of the criticisms leveled at you so often.
John and I have a backstory. He's taken time out of his life to ridicule me publicly. I have gone at him. I know what he has said and what I said about the prior thrust is not inaccurate. So you agree with that. You are taking the opportunity to be personally critical out of what, that you have a different point of view? You strongly feel you're right, at what I think is the same quality as me on the opposite side.
What is specifically arrogant about what I said? I have had it with the childish trolling of Tricky Loops and I finally said something?

What are you doing for the community piling on me? You got bruised during argumentation, yours isn't very good here. If you're very delicate, being argumentative for the sake of it is an odd thing to do. Is that mean? Is you trying, not for the first time, to shame me for stating my opinion strongly very kind?
Really, I can't stand this Jancivil Bashing Show any more. First you wrote in your post that you were looking after the right answer, but nothing was true and everything was permitted, and if I ask you about this contradiction, I only get non-stop insults from you. I have better things to do than acting and re-acting after every insult by you. I know that it makes you happy to argue and litigate and insult, but that's not my kind of attitude. I want to discuss (and argue) with other musicians without insulting continously...

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jancivil wrote:
lingyai wrote:In truth, Jan, you make this a very tense part of KVR
and people being morons like Tricky Loops is irritating for me.

Who is forcing you to read this thread? This is mostly what you come here to do, say this shit to me?
No one forces me to read it. The point is, I'd LIKE to read it, without having to wade through installement after installment of the now very well-worn saga of you vs the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDj_Van ... uNbgY-4qFK

Circumcision's just another way of saying 'bye to the 'hood

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Jan, can you seriously not see why there are so many people responding to you this way?

Is there not even a small alarm bell going off somewhere in the back of your mind making you wonder why it's you against the world? Yet again?

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robojam wrote:My opinion may be the other side of the coin, but that doesn't mean that personal criticism is opportunistic, it is simply the same cause and effect that has gone before. Perhaps rather than focus narrowly on specific instances of people leveling an arrogance criticism you should consider your overall demeanor - do you really feel that you are singled out for personal attack? Could it not be that there is an element of truth in what people say and that it is at least worthy of consideration?
In this thread, your initial disagreement and spat was with Digriz! You DID single me out for this diatribe. Come on.

I know perfectly well that I don't present what a lot of people would prefer.
EG: You are making arguments that are intellectually dishonest. Sure there must be a real gentle way to teach you what you are doing, but I am not that person. Best to disabuse yourself of the notion you can bash me into that I think.
robojam wrote:For a start I would at least like to stand beside those at whom you spit your vitriol.
You're agreeing with John Hinckley calling me arrogant. for what, I challenge you to demonstrate.

You're piling on from my perspective.
robojam wrote: It is certainly not an effective way of making any point, and you would be far better served by taking a step back before snapping back any reaction.
Did you somehow think 'let me fix that for you' and calling the man arrogant elitist was your best move to make yours? How long do you reflect on such decisions? Look in the mirror.
robojam wrote: Secondly I do feel that my voice is equally as important as anyone voicing an opinion opposite to mine, and if it is something that is a pet hate then I will join in.
All well and good! But if what you do when it gets a little heated is what you evidenced here, I think that isn't any good.

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lingyai wrote:
jancivil wrote:
lingyai wrote:In truth, Jan, you make this a very tense part of KVR
and people being morons like Tricky Loops is irritating for me.

Who is forcing you to read this thread? This is mostly what you come here to do, say this shit to me?
No one forces me to read it. The point is, I'd LIKE to read it, without having to wade through installement after installment of the now very well-worn saga of you vs the world
did you read the first page and a half? It went awry before I mixed in. Before that I was addressing the OP thoughtfully. You're flaming me, your disguise is quite sheer.

Me vs the world? It is my opinion vs other opinions and I like to argue.

This is the same line of attack you came at me with via PM (a seriously unhinged and personally abusive thing that was; how comfortable would you be to have that exposed?) the backstory of you going out of your way to flame me. You need to paint a picture of a horrible sad person; what do you gain by this shit? This is so far out of line it's insane.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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There really is no hope for you Jan. Enjoy your island.

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wow. that nicely illustrates what I just said to you.

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Tricky-Loops wrote:Really, I can't stand this Jancivil Bashing Show any more. First you wrote in your post that you were looking after the right answer, but nothing was true and everything was permitted, and if I ask you about this contradiction, I only get non-stop insults from you. I have better things to do than acting and re-acting after every insult by you. I know that it makes you happy to argue and litigate and insult, but that's not my kind of attitude. I want to discuss (and argue) with other musicians without insulting continously...
What a preposterous revision of what happened.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted, is rhetoric. http://old.disinfo.com/archive/pages/ar ... d1562/pg1/

My point was that 'there is no right answer' resembles that.

You somehow have no idea of what I meant and snipped it to roll your eyes at it, trying to make it something that has no resemblance to what I presented in order to do that.

Evidently you have nothing better to do at the moment than to do that, which is obnoxious and wildly dishonest and now to try and sell a fiction about that in order to be right. It was insulting and your other trolling was as well. So you're lying.

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robojam wrote:Jan, can you seriously not see why there are so many people responding to you this way?

Is there not even a small alarm bell going off somewhere in the back of your mind making you wonder why it's you against the world? Yet again?
It's me against a segment of KVR that resembles you. There are segments of society that would be cheering everything I've said. I have presented this kind of KVR thing to people that laughed wildly at it. If you think you and these three people are 'the world', you're seceding from reality yourself to an "island" IME.

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The good thing in those threads is, that I learn whom I can safely ignore in the future - and Jan isn't one of them...

There seems to be a strong tendency on KVR to shun those who value good craftsmanship and speak their mind about it. Me, I'm certainly not a musician (though I do enjoy making noise), but I can tell if I hear one and appreciate what's required to actually be one. I'll never reach that level, mostly because I started much too late - and that's OK.

Jan, you're making awesome music - and that's all I need to know, to know where to turn when I'm looking for guidance and inspiration.
The hole is deeper than the hum of its farts

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jancivil wrote: John and I have a backstory. He's taken time out of his life to ridicule me publicly.
I said I would not respond but I must...no Jan I never did, please show me one example of where I have gone out my way to ridicule you...in fact except I ask the collective KvR is it in Hink's nature to go out of my way to ridicule anyone unless it' friendly banter?

Please leave me be
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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dreamkeeper wrote:The good thing in those threads is, that I learn whom I can safely ignore in the future - and Jan isn't one of them...

There seems to be a strong tendency on KVR to shun those who value good craftsmanship and speak their mind about it. Me, I'm certainly not a musician (though I do enjoy making noise), but I can tell if I hear one and appreciate what's required to actually be one. I'll never reach that level, mostly because I started much too late - and that's OK.

Jan, you're making awesome music - and that's all I need to know, to know where to turn when I'm looking for guidance and inspiration.
Calling an other opinion "idiotic" and insulting other people surely seems to be a great sign of good craftsmanship?? If this kind of arrogant attitude is the future of our world, I never want to be part of it... :?

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Wow. People, please. I haven't time to read the thread and see where things went wrong, but what in the world is worth this kind of brawl? I suppose the thread will have to be locked and split, but it would be better if those involved could back off and maybe cool down, try to see each others as fellow creatives with different approaches instead of rivals.

Am I being stupid to hope for that? Can you guys at least give peace a chance, or some such?

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Tricky-Loops wrote:
dreamkeeper wrote:The good thing in those threads is, that I learn whom I can safely ignore in the future - and Jan isn't one of them...

There seems to be a strong tendency on KVR to shun those who value good craftsmanship and speak their mind about it. Me, I'm certainly not a musician (though I do enjoy making noise), but I can tell if I hear one and appreciate what's required to actually be one. I'll never reach that level, mostly because I started much too late - and that's OK.

Jan, you're making awesome music - and that's all I need to know, to know where to turn when I'm looking for guidance and inspiration.
Calling an other opinion "idiotic" and insulting other people surely seems to be a great sign of good craftsmanship?? If this kind of arrogant attitude is the future of our world, I never want to be part of it... :?
Before criticising what others have said, you may want to brush up on your English reading comprehension skills, and maybe look up the term "context". And that interpretation is even the more favourable for you. I'm almost embarrassed to say that I'm German too - my oh my... :roll:

Just to help you out: an absolute statement isn't exactly an "opinion".
The hole is deeper than the hum of its farts

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