KVR Audio

Amram · Post by **Amram** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:24 pm

How come marcus doesnt join to the conversation ?

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:50 pm

JoeCat wrote:
Examigan wrote:...

from EULA:
Sampling:
This product can be used for music production, making records, remixes, commercials, jingles, soundtracks for film, theatre, musicals and computer games. The included sounds and this product can not be used for making music or sounds that will be licensed or sold as library music, sound clips or other sample based products. You are not allowed to sample and distribute sounds or waveforms from this product without our written permission. Especially not for creating commercial content for other synthesizers, sample packs, romplers or audio devices.
Library music? A lot of music for soundtracks, commercials, etc., comes from library music - full productions.
?

That really doesn't make sense as it , as you say contradicts their own EULA, however I think what they mean is that sounds in isolation cannot be used. This however is not specified, its badly worded, confusing and ultimately stupid EULA.

Spectrasonics don't allow their factory sounds to be used in isolation for example, and they are very lenient in the application of it. The opening sound fro LOST from Atmosphere had been edited slightly and didn't break the agreement, although to anybodies ears it was identical.

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:04 pm

Since there is a huge amount of missinforation within this thread i registered to kvr and will post a statement to clear things up.

Q: Are i allowed to use sounds of Tone2 synthesizers in my commercial music production?
A: Yes. Of course! You do not have to ask for a permission.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to release a commerical soundset for a Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: No. That's fine. If you need technical assistance feel free to contact us.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to use a Tone2 synth for generating commercial content for a non-Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes, since many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material.

Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.
We have contacted Urs Heckmann and offered to him, that he can legally license our algorithms, waveforms and wavetables. So far Urs Heckmann did not agree on a payment.

If you got further questions please refer to our forum or send us an email. We do not do support on kvr.

Best Regards,
Markus Krause
Tone2 Audiosoftware

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Q: What do you mean with 'library music'?

Magix Music Maker

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:08 pm

Markus Krause wrote:Since there is a huge amount of missinforation within this thread i registered to kvr and will post a statement to clear things up.

Q: Are i allowed to use sounds of Tone2 synthesizers in my commercial music production?
A: Yes. Of course! You do not have to ask for a permission.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to release a commerical soundset for a Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: No. That's fine. If you need technical assistance feel free to contact us.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to use a Tone2 synth for generating commercial content for a non-Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes, since many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material.

Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.
We have contacted Urs Heckmann and offered to him, that he can legally license our algorithms, waveforms and wavetables. So far Urs Heckmann did not agree on a payment.

If you got further questions please refer to our forum or send us an email. We do not do support on kvr.

Best Regards,
Markus Krause
Tone2 Audiosoftware

So Markus, I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

So if I open up Icarus and take a default sawtooth wave, record it, run it through 37 different FX and then record that sound and then run it through a granular synth and then record that sound, at which point there is no way anybody can tell where the original source sound came from, you're going to come after me with a team of lawyers and sue me if I then take that finished sound and create a library of samples for another synth?

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:10 pm

Markus Krause wrote:We have contacted Urs Heckmann and offered to him, that he can legally license our algorithms, waveforms and wavetables. So far Urs Heckmann did not agree on a payment.

That was one exciting phone call! Can't wait for the letter you promised to send!

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:16 pm

@wagtunes:
A sawtooth or sine wave is trivial content. It is not copyrighted material.
A complex wavetable is copyrighted material.

If you got further questions please contact me directly by email. We do not do support on kvr.

@Urs:
Sadly you hung up the phone before i could explain everything to you.
We should not discuss business internals in the public. Please contact me directly by email

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:16 pm

This thread is officially surreal

JoeCat · Post by **JoeCat** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:16 pm

Markus Krause wrote:Q: What do you mean with 'library music'?

Magix Music Maker

OK good this is different from the definition I'm familiar with, with applies to music published for commercial licensing (such as https://www.positionmusic.com/). That wouldn't have made sense.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:19 pm

SLiC wrote:This thread is officially surreal

+1
rsp

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Markus Krause wrote:.........

@Urs:
..........
We should not discuss business internals in the public. Please contact me directly by email

Agreed as a user of both of your products, Please, sort this out in private away from our eyes.
It feels like watching your parents go through a public divorce to me anyway.

rsp

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:33 pm

Markus Krause wrote:Sadly you hung up the phone before i could explain everything to you.

For the record, would you mind stating in public what you said you would do?

You explained very well what you want. I'm just not gonna give it to you. No "payments" for things I don't need, no warrants that my software can't load your stuff, no warrants that sound designers can - illegally or not - use your products to make content for our stuff. You're basically asking me to prohibit .wav import in my software, so no-one can infringe on your copyrights. [redacted part due to temp loss of temper, I mean, who doesn't when a competitor announces (i.e. not just threatens) legal action on something that has not even happened?]

You can be very happy that I have a good sense of humour. That is, unless you stop the slander and insinuation of wrong doing.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:34 pm

Interesting response to say the least. So a sawtooth wav, even though it's still generated by Icarus, is not copyrighted content.

So at what point DOES it become copyrighted content? When I apply a filter to it? An LFO? What about an envelope? What about if I apply one of the built in FX or more than one?

When we start qualifying what is and what ISN'T copyrighted content from the SAME synth, that's when we end up walking down a VERY slippery slope.

And just for the record, I have absolutely no desire to start sampling sounds from Icarus, mangling them to death and sell them in some sample related product. I'm not into that stuff. I just design patches for synths using whatever the synths have to offer in the way of sound design. And since Icarus wavetables aren't compatible with any other synth that I own, what's the point anyway? I use Serum and/or some 3rd party wavetable creator to make my wavetables and that's good enough for me.

Still, interesting line we've drawn here.

I wonder what a court of law would do with this?

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:49 pm

@Urs:

I do not want to prohibit you or sound designers from importing wav files to your product.

As a developer you are responsible for the content of your product. If one of your sound designers illegaly uses copyrighted content from a Tone2 product your product also violates the copyright.

If you want to use our technolgy, wavetables or waveforms you can license them from us.

Please respect our work and our intellectual belongings.

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:49 pm

Markus Krause wrote:Q: What do you mean with 'library music'?

Magix Music Maker

I am still sorta confused, WTF is Magic Music Maker ? Library music is a well defined term meaning tracks(pieces of music) that are licensed for TV/Film/Web use etc. If you use that term that is what is understood. If you are talking about use in Magic Music Maker then specify it. I would suggest a rewrite with a different lawyer.

Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)