Do the monitors even matter in an untreated room? Debating JBL 305P MkII vs PreSonus Eris 4.5 or 3.5

[Ploki]

We'll have to imagine it, since he's not wrong in reality (but he is oversimplifying and taking it too far). The truth lies somewhere in between the two of you. Nearfield monitoring can reduce room issues - the key word being reduce, not eliminate - and how much can vary. Personally I'd rather treat the room than have to sit ridiculously close to my speakers all the time, but to each their own.

Getting back to the original question: yes, Virginia, monitors matter, regardless of how well- or poorly-treated the room is. Obviously the better it's treated, the more any lacking quality in the speakers will stick out. Again it's all in the details...

a) He's wrong in claiming SBIR is a made up term
b) he's also wrong in claiming near-field monitoring is immune to room issues
c) he's also wrong that 20cm is a good distance (stemming from his conviction of SBIR not existing)
What of this do you need to imagine?

you can't have monitors close enough so room issues are resolved because if not anything else (big if), bass will still radiate 360 degrees and cause dips.
And at that point it's much better and smarter to use headphones. What BONES is describing is HEADPHONES.

Yes, nearfield monitoring opts to create a bigger direct-to-room ratio than midfield monitoring, but it's still a speaker in a room and always will be.

I don't see how bones' truth is is "between", please elaborate.

Good music does work everywhere, some setups don't allow you to hear enough to make the best mix that you can.

NS-10s destroy this argument completely.

Except you can't mix any modern bass-heavy music on NS10s. At all. Because you can't mix shit that speakers can't reproduce.

[Ploki]

since i apparently need to prove it, here's a directivity pattern for a Genelec 8040 - fairly small (and fairly directional) speaker. Directivity is supplied by Genelec.


30 degrees off axis is already everything that shoots away from your head. It's easy to see that even at 60 degrees, response falls down to -10dB.

Everything that's not on 0 degree axis will at more than 30cm radiate in to the room and back to
- your ears
- listening position, causing either destructive or constructive phase cancellation.
0dB for low frequencies is normal because the port is at the back.

here's directivity for a front-ported genelec: (notice both vertical and horizontal) 1032C

Screenshot 2022-08-02 at 10.20.18.png

Both of these speakers use waveguide to improve directivity.

here's a useful article on speaker directivity:
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201311 ... t-options/

this is Kii Three directivity, because they employ a cardioid design:

Here SBIRs are less problematic because the speaker is directional basically down to the crossover point of the back woofers.

I only head Dutch 8C in person not the Kiis, but i still prefer a good soffit by a long shot. However it's an option if you wish to skimp on the acoustic treatment. not a cheap one.

as you can imagine, speaker directivity is a big thing in cinema setups (where you have arrays of surrounds) and PA with line arrays and a wide area you need to cover.

[BONES]

a) He's wrong in claiming SBIR is a made up term

No he's not. I've never seen it referred to in any ancient texts so someone has made it up at some point. Anyway, the main point was that it applies equally to front or rear ported speakers, so you were wrong nayway.

b) he's also wrong in claiming near-field monitoring is immune to room issues

Except he never made such a claim. What he might have said is that it takes the room out of the equation, and that's because it minimises the effect of the room to the point that it is irrelevant.

c) he's also wrong that 20cm is a good distance (stemming from his conviction of SBIR not existing)

Wrong and wrong again. Did you not read the screengrab I provided, which shows that the internet is on my side? Because the thing is you can check it for yourself and anyone who has put their rear ported speakers too close to a wall will have heard the difference. it seems to stem from not understanding the role of the port, which is simply to allow the free flow of air into and out of the cabinet, which in turn allows the speaker cone to move more freely. It's not pumping out sound, just air. That's probably why they put it up high, not directly behind the driver.

Here's another quote I found, which links to the source - "the amount of space needed behind a rear ported speaker is usually only a couple of inches between rear of speaker and the wall for the port to function properly".

you can't have monitors close enough so room issues are resolved because if not anything else (big if), bass will still radiate 360 degrees and cause dips.

Man, you really don't understand any of this, do you? The dips will occur in specific points in teh room and there will also be points in the room where the frequencies will reinforce one another and make the bass boomy. So all you need to do is position yourself somewhere between those two areas. I can hear this effect when I go to the galley, which is behind where I sit while I'm working. The bass back there is really boomy but it normalises as I walk forwards, back to my seat in the sweet spot.

These are, as I said, things to be aware of, things that might help you resolve an issue, if one arises. They are a reason to maybe move your desk forwards or back a little, or perhaps to move your speakers slightly, they are not a reason to f**k about treating your room or to blow a shit-tonne of money on expensive speakers and it's stupid to think that it is.

Yes, nearfield monitoring opts to create a bigger direct-to-room ratio than midfield monitoring, but it's still a speaker in a room and always will be.

But the whole point is that you can make it so that the room doesn't matter any more because you can't hear it.

since i apparently need to prove it, here's a directivity pattern for a Genelec 8040 - fairly small (and fairly directional) speaker. Directivity is supplied by Genelec.

Two different pairs of speakers, the pretty pictures prove nothing. OTOH, those links you provided prove that you're wrong.

[BONES]

Except you can't mix any modern bass-heavy music on NS10s. At all. Because you can't mix shit that speakers can't reproduce.

Says who? Just because you can't do something, don't assume no-one else can. I bet Bob Clearmountain could. If I was used to how they sound, I bet I could, too. But if you don't know what you're doing and everything you think you know has come from the internet, well...

One thing, though, is that the very first link you provided explains why you are so far off-base - "Speaker boundary interference response (SBIR for short) is a little known and poorly understood issue". Your understanding was clearly poor, given the context in which you brought it up. And why might it be "little known"? I'd suggest it's because it's made up.

But this is the real doozy - the second article you linked to, which you clearly didn't bother to read, has this little nugget - "If you have a rear port, leave at least a few inches (> 8cm) of space between the rear of your speaker and any surface." So your own link proves you wrong. How embarrassing for you. I think we can stop now, don't you?

Your response doesn't address his comment. All of the speaker types you mentioned are very different and have nothing to do with knowing (or not) what you're missing in terms of quality studio speakers.

That's not what he was saying. He was saying you'd be missing musical content, certain frequencies or whatever, if you didn't have good speakers. I was simply pointing out that there would be other situations where such lack would be exposed. i.e. if you monitors weren't up to the task, you'd find out pretty quickly when your music sounded awful when you played it anywhere other than in your studio.

That's actually something that irks me in this discussion - you guys are all so into rules and rigid beliefs, none of which have ever been more than passingly relevant in my 40 years of making music. I'd suggest all those things you believe are set in stone are really nothing more than guidelines, things to help you solve problems if they should arise. But you seem to think that you have to get out a tape measure and put your speakers in exactly the right place and you have to spend hundreds, thousands maybe, treating your room to make sure it conforms to some ISO standard or other, otherwise you won't be able to make great music. Well, sorry to burst your bubble but I've been making great music for around 30 years now without worrying about any of that shit. But don't take my word for it, read some of our recent album reviews -

"... this album deserves a special mention in the most accomplished productions in its genre from 2020" - Side-Line Magazine

"... another quantum leap in both song writing and production that makes this album NOVAkILL’s masterwork." - Side-Line Reviews (No, we didn't pay them, it's just that the other reviews were in German print magazines, OK?)

Kind of like "nearfield monitoring" (and probably at least a half-dozen other goofball terms common in the industry - I never liked such pretentious BS tbh).

So common that I'd never heard of it and the first thing that came up in a search that was relevant was on Page 2. And even the article Ploki linked to admits up front that it's "little known and poorly understood". That's quite different from "common in the industry".

[ON BEATS]

🥹

unfortunately your energy is wasted in this forum. i haven't been on this forum that long, but it seems people just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

i'm old school when it comes to music production and i think what Bones writes and shares with us on this forum makes sense.

you don't have to agree with me, but for god's sake stop arguing EVERY point he makes, as if you're all going to win one day and feel good.

just stop it.

stop being savages.

you are human beings.

come on man. for the sake of the planet can we stop arguing for one day? jesus man

[Ploki]

wont argue existence of physics with people. I frequent flat-earth groups for that, not here. i'm out.

just one thing!

But the whole point is that you can make it so that the room doesn't matter any more because you can't hear it.

YOU CAN'T BONES, BECAUSE EVEN YOUR HEAD ISN'T THAT BIG TO COVER UP THE WHOLE DISPERSION PATTERN

🥹

unfortunately your energy is wasted in this forum. i haven't been on this forum that long, but it seems people just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

i'm old school when it comes to music production and i think what Bones writes and shares with us on this forum makes sense.

you don't have to agree with me, but for god's sake stop arguing EVERY point he makes, as if you're all going to win one day and feel good.

just stop it.

stop being savages.

you are human beings.

come on man. for the sake of the planet can we stop arguing for one day? jesus man

no, bones just categorically needs to be right ALL THE f**king TIME, if he's not, he'll gaslight, ad hominem and just plain make shit up to fit his narrative. When you're on this forum for long enough you'll experience it.

I really don't care what you people do with speakers, what I wrote here can be confirmed by any physicist specialising in acoustics, it's a well known phenomenon among acoustician, speaker designers and studio designers. It's not well known among bedroom producers, but that doesn't make it "made up" or "non existant" or "irrelevant" in any shape or form.

[ON BEATS]

I get your point. But it doesn't matter because we all reference check the mix on headphones or earphones.

My room is not treated. But I know that if I place my Alesis Monitor One MKII too close to the wall the bass will 'boom' too much. But who cares?

The producers who are really selling music are on instagram. The producers who argue and squabble are on forums.

It's my fault for commenting. I'll take a couple days off.

Have a great day doing whatever it is you're all doing.

[BertKoor]

/thread