The rise of Linux desktop is inevitable — it’s time music software developers got on board

[audiojunkie]

CachyOS is just as broken as all the other distros I tried.

Oh dear. CachyOS is not only a "young" (read: not mature) distro -- it's also a niche one (read: small enduser base for testing).

What are the "other distros" did you try? Debian? Mint? MX?

Moving on to Pop!_OS

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Pop uses a brand new (read: just out of beta) desktop called "Cosmic". If your computer didn't like Cachy, it probably won't like Cosmic.

I agree with j_e_g on this one

[j_e_g]

I agree with j_e_g on this one

If you keep that up, someone is going to accuse you of having a "linux vendetta".

[audiojunkie]

I agree with j_e_g on this one

If you keep that up, someone is going to accuse you of having a "linux vendetta".

[ghettosynth]

CachyOS is just as broken as all the other distros I tried.

Oh dear. CachyOS is not only a "young" (read: not mature) distro -- it's also a niche one (read: small enduser base for testing).

What are the "other distros" did you try? Debian? Mint? MX?

Moving on to Pop!_OS

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Pop uses a brand new (read: just out of beta) desktop called "Cosmic". If your computer didn't like Cachy, it probably won't like Cosmic.

I agree with j_e_g on this one

This is actually a good example of why I'm not an advocate. The move from one distribution to another in the hopes that it's going to fix your problem, especially without understanding what the distributions are and what problems they are intended to solve, is a form of cargo cult problem solving.

"Which distribution should I try?" You should not try a distribution, and you should not ask me more annoying questions. People seem to think that this is a problem with Linux users, it's really not, it's a problem with non-Linux users not knowing what they don't know. This goes double today because you can just ask an LLM which distribution might meet your needs. From my POV, these kinds of questions are often just some odd flavor of attention seeking and an attempt at signaling.

[audiojunkie]

CachyOS is just as broken as all the other distros I tried.

Oh dear. CachyOS is not only a "young" (read: not mature) distro -- it's also a niche one (read: small enduser base for testing).

What are the "other distros" did you try? Debian? Mint? MX?

Moving on to Pop!_OS

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Pop uses a brand new (read: just out of beta) desktop called "Cosmic". If your computer didn't like Cachy, it probably won't like Cosmic.

I agree with j_e_g on this one

This is actually a good example of why I'm not an advocate. The move from one distribution to another in the hopes that it's going to fix your problem, especially without understanding what the distributions are and what problems they are intended to solve, is a form of cargo cult problem solving.

"Which distribution should I try?" You should not try a distribution, and you should not ask me more annoying questions. People seem to think that this is a problem with Linux users, it's really not, it's a problem with non-Linux users not knowing what they don't know. This goes double today because you can just ask an LLM which distribution might meet your needs. From my POV, these kinds of questions are often just some odd flavor of attention seeking and an attempt at signaling.

I don't know about the situation with attention seeking or signaling by non-Linux users, but there is logic in being careful what a new Linux user starts with.

I personally think the best thing for a new linux user to start with is something that is super reliable, and very easy to use. I would never recommend a new user start with Debian Sid, Gentoo, or Linux from Scratch. I would, however, recommend a user start with an easy to use, reliable distro that is likely to be problem free and not break easily. I would try to determine the users wants/needs and use experience to recommend something that will give the best experience possible while providing what the new linux user wants/needs. I equate "advocacy" as being as helpful as possible to new or prospective users--which is largely where a lot of various users disagree--as in what is actually helpful for new or prospective users.

For example, if someone says that they wouldn't use Linux unless their Windows apps could use ASIO on Linux. My response of informing a user that this can be done with a native tool such as WineASIO would be an example of what I would consider trying to be helpful--to let them know that this ability exists. Someone else may simply assume bad intent, and accuse me of lies and intentions to mislead <--which serves no useful purpose. Why would anyone WANT to purposely mislead someone about Linux? That's what boggles the mind. Why does everyone have to automatically assume bad intent. That's what doesn't make sense.



"I’m told I lie constantly when I say Linux is great — which is wild, because I’m apparently “misleading” you with things like: it boots, it runs my audio workflow, it stays stable, it gets updates, and it keeps existing despite being declared dead every year since forever. Also yes, it’s “too hard,” “too niche,” “no devs will ever care,” and “Linus complained once,” so clearly I must be fabricating my entire operating system out of pure delusion."
-----The Delusional Linux Advocate

[lunardigs]

Short version: calling yourself an advocate doesn’t justify misleading people.

You’re not just advocating, you’re doing it in the worst possible way by presenting half-truths and false claims as facts. Framing criticism as “trolling” and flaming everybody who just points the slightest at your lies while overselling Linux is not helping anyone, it’s just misinforming people.

If you actually want to help, be honest about both strengths and limitations instead of pushing a narrative.

Lol, look who's talking.
That's 🫵, Tiles.

[lunardigs]

Anyways, the short answer to why Windows is preinstalled on laptops and desktops is payola, or bribery you could call it (bribery lite), or lobbying (bribery lite), or free market capitalism tactics ...
Again, Linux isn't any of that, because it's not a commercial enterprise by itself. It's just a free and open source kernel.
This is why the apples to oranges comparison stuff is so stupid. Linux and Windows aren't really comparable.
But still, to give some perspective here, as to the success of one vs. the other; Linux is the most popular OS on the planet, all told, which I've been over before. This is just a fact.

[ghettosynth]

Anyways, the short answer to why Windows is preinstalled on laptops and desktops is payola, or bribery you could call it (bribery lite), or lobbying (bribery lite), or free market capitalism tactics ...
Again, Linux isn't any of that, because it's not a commercial enterprise by itself. It's just a free and open source kernel.
This is why the apples to oranges comparison stuff is so stupid. Linux and Windows aren't really comparable.
But still, to give some perspective here, as to the success of one vs. the other; Linux is the most popular OS on the planet, all told, which I've been over before. This is just a fact.

Correct and even Tile's argument that the server impact has no impact on the desktop isn't quite complete. The server market has quietly and successfully evolved the kernel into a state of maturity over decades. Everyone benefits from this.

[BONES]

You chose a weird stat there

What's weirdest about it is that it includes OS X and I can't imagine anyone is still using that. But it aligns with other stats I accessed and the graph was prettier.

Doesn't really matter though, the point remains that was Apple three to four times smaller in market share 20 years ago.

And still would be if not for iPhone and billions in marketing.

For being "OS agnostic" by your own words you really don't seem to be in practice.
Windows 95 had an installation size of about 19 MB and required around 50-55 MB of hard drive space. In contrast, Windows 11 requires significantly more resources, typically needing at least 64 GB of storage for installation.

I thought you were at a least a little bit smart but it seems I was wrong. Windows 11 is a 64 bit operating system, the code is way bigger. Just look at the size difference between a 32 bit VST plugin and the 64 bit version of the same thing. Windows 95 only needed to include wallpapers at 640x480 in 8 bit colour, not 4k, 24 bit images. You know, little things like that. In any event, how much disk space it takes up is irrelevant when the RAM requirement of any application today is roughly 100 times greater than most of the HDDs people were installing Windows 95 on. I think my Win95 PC has a 240MB HDD.

I'm not a Linux user as you well know, but I do not see it as a non starter

Well, I have been a Linux user, I have actual, direct experience, and I can assure you that you're wrong. It's good OS, it's just that it is largely unsupported by application vendors and there isn't any real reason for anyone to use it, beyond the tin-foil hat stuff you've mentioned.

... the aforementioned well discussed slash and burn policies of Mac OS.

I'm not sue if you've noticed, but Mac users defend the shit Apple does to them. It's a cult, people aren't going to give it up.

Maybe not in our time using computers with music but I could easily see 25 years from now a significant portion of the user base switching to an OS that you can block from surveillance and marketing.

If that's your criteria, then Windows qualifies. It's all optional, you can switch if off whenever you like. But what you're saying is, as I've said, exactly what was being said 25 years ago and it still hasn't happened.

Things are getting weird and an OS not beholden to Palentir affiliated administrations and built in spyware is going to seem more and more attractive among other reasons.

Not if it requires effort. You badly underestimate the inertia of the masses.

Not everything is marketing.

How terribly naive of you.

Um, what does that even mean?

Config files are text files to specify settings with. Editing them "as root" means you change the settings for the whole system, you need to do this with passworded admin access. You don't do this with a gui text editor because it messes with things.

Perfect example of why Linux will never be popular. It's a foreign country, maybe a nice place to visit but it's way too weird for you to want to live there.

And on this note I shall leave you all to your stupidity. We have an album to finish.

[lunardigs]

omg ... this guy with the exhaustive blockquotes

[BertKoor]

Q: What does FOSS stand for?
A: Fear Of Software Selection

Nice quote, very out of context:

> You should not try a distribution, and you should not ask me more annoying questions.

This reads as "if you need to ask then its not for you", in other words: gatekeeping.

The question though is legit. I've googled (actually duckduckgo) for "linux distro advice" but the sites serving this are full of ads, the articles read as AI slop. I doubt a diagram like this is realy helpful:


So this wide choice does not help. And it's not like picking a new car (or is it? )

[audiojunkie]

Anyways, the short answer to why Windows is preinstalled on laptops and desktops is payola, or bribery you could call it (bribery lite), or lobbying (bribery lite), or free market capitalism tactics ...
Again, Linux isn't any of that, because it's not a commercial enterprise by itself. It's just a free and open source kernel.
This is why the apples to oranges comparison stuff is so stupid. Linux and Windows aren't really comparable.
But still, to give some perspective here, as to the success of one vs. the other; Linux is the most popular OS on the planet, all told, which I've been over before. This is just a fact.

Correct and even Tile's argument that the server impact has no impact on the desktop isn't quite complete. The server market has quietly and successfully evolved the kernel into a state of maturity over decades. Everyone benefits from this.

Agreed! Now, if I were Tiles, I'd be accusing you of lies and purposely misleading others. Be careful.



"I’m told I lie constantly when I say Linux is great — which is wild, because I’m apparently “misleading” you with things like: it boots, it runs my audio workflow, it stays stable, it gets updates, and it keeps existing despite being declared dead every year since forever. Also yes, it’s “too hard,” “too niche,” “no devs will ever care,” and “Linus complained once,” so clearly I must be fabricating my entire operating system out of pure delusion."
-----The Delusional Linux Advocate

[audiojunkie]

Q: What does FOSS stand for?
A: Fear Of Software Selection

Nice quote, very out of context:

> You should not try a distribution, and you should not ask me more annoying questions.

This reads as "if you need to ask then its not for you", in other words: gatekeeping.

The question though is legit. I've googled (actually duckduckgo) for "linux distro advice" but the sites serving this are full of ads, the articles read as AI slop. I doubt a diagram like this is realy helpful:


So this wide choice does not help. And it's not like picking a new car (or is it? )

It takes more thought than most people realize when picking a linux distro. You need to decide on several things that you want out of a distro. So yes, it's like picking a new car, if you want to be successful. Over time, while distro-hopping, I developed a very specific set of criteria that I wanted out of a distro. I eventually found what I wanted. I think, in the beginning, people do not know enough about linux to really know what to ask for. That makes the problem difficult. When someone asks me what distro they should use, I always ask them what they are wanting to do with their distro. I then ask several more questions about what aspects of a distro are important to them. This helps me narrow things down to a few distros to recommend.

If it's a newbie Linux user that is wanting to use Linux for audio, I definitely wouldn't recommend a regular distro to begin with. I'd recommend something like AV Linux or Ubuntu Studio or LibraZik. The reason, is because new users need to learn a lot about how linux works, and they need to have success with having everything working. Later on, when they get experience or feel more comfortable, they can take the next step of using a regular distro and manually tuning the OS for low audio latency and manually setting things like WINE up. But making it easy at first and allowing a user to experience success is what will keep them interested and wanting to stay. I know you weren't referring to me as gatekeeping, but I just want to make it clear that I don't agree with gatekeeping.

But it goes on. You also need to choose a desktop environment. You also need to determine if you would like to use an atomic/immutable next generation Linux or a regular linux. Atomic/immutable next generation Linux distros do a lot of sandboxing and containerization, which solves a ton of problems from the old days, like dependency hell and such, but they introduce new additional complexities.

You also need to decide between the pros and cons of versioned distros vs rolling distros. You have to determine whether community is important to you or not. For example, Debian (probably my second favorite distro) is not nearly as friendly a community as say, Endeavor OS. But Endeavor OS is an Arch-based distro, which is using a rolling release and is using Pacman for it's package manager. Speaking of package managers, you have several to choose from, so you will need to pick the package manger you prefer, and what package manager you choose will determine what distro you choose. Likewise, the size of the main repo that is available can be an important decision--although that I've found that if you stick with the main big distros, they all have extra distros that pretty much even things out. Fedora +COPR, OpenSuse with their Open Build System, Arch with their AUR, Debian (which has the largest default repo), along with its 3rd party repos, Ubuntu with its PPAs, etc. etc. I could go on and on and on, but yes, there is a lot to decide on. Remember, each distro exists because someone wanted to do things differently. So yes, there are a lot of choices to be made, and new users don't even know what they don't know at the beginning--they can't know what they like unless they research and probably distro hop for a while.

I personally like Fedora Silverblue. I previously used Fedora Workstation for quite a while. The nice thing about Fedora Silverblue, is that it is an atomic/immutable next generation distro that resolves dependency hell and a lot of other problems through all of its containerization--provided you use it as recommended. For example, the core of your OS is immutable--which means that it is unchangeable. It is very secure and almost guaranteed to not have update problems. If you happen to have an update problem like those of the past, you simply revert back to the original immutable image, and wait a few days for an update to fix the problem. I used to get problems occasionally with Ubuntu (years ago) where my keyboard driver or some other driver wouldn't install properly after an update. Those types of problems are over. As per Fedora Silverblue recommendations, I use Flatpaks where possible (which are sandboxed), and I use Toolbx or Distrobox for containerized OSes. I have Fedora in Toolbx, and in Distrobox, I have Ubuntu, my audio stuff, WINE, etc. I try to install as little as possible on my main OS. Everything goes to sandboxes and containers. No more dependency hell, no more problems with corrupt distros, no more problems with upgrades. But there are drawbacks too. For example, Fedora Silverblue uses a special package manager: rpm-ostree. In addition, toolbx, which runs Fedora in it uses DNF for its package manager. Distrobox, which could run any distro I want (provided there is a container for it), uses Ubuntu, which has the apt-get package manager. Flatpak has its own package manager as well. So, in order to get the benefits of next generation linux the Fedora way, I have had to learn 5 different package managers! Once everything is installed onto the base system, everything works and acts like a unified OS. But to set things up or install software, you can see how it might be seen as an additional difficulty. Sometime, the next generation technology is called cloud-native computing, because the technology that is used in these second generation OSes originated with cloud servers and the cloud industry. I don't know if all immutable OSes are like that or not, because I stopped investigating once I found a distro that satisfied everything I wanted in a distro, but I would imagine it's probably quite similar.

I didn't go into the decision of whether to use X11 or Wayland, or some of the other decisions that a linux user needs to decide on. There are many more. So yes, to make an informed decision, there are a lot of choices to be made.




"I’m told I lie constantly when I say Linux is great — which is wild, because I’m apparently “misleading” you with things like: it boots, it runs my audio workflow, it stays stable, it gets updates, and it keeps existing despite being declared dead every year since forever. Also yes, it’s “too hard,” “too niche,” “no devs will ever care,” and “Linus complained once,” so clearly I must be fabricating my entire operating system out of pure delusion."
-----The Delusional Linux Advocate

[lunardigs]

Plus, nothing replaces experience. So at a certain point, you just gotta jump in.
Pick something and go with it.
Then down the road, you can change if you want--armed with better insight and knowledge.

[audiojunkie]

Plus, nothing replaces experience. So at a certain point, you just gotta jump in.
Pick something and go with it.
Then down the road, you can change if you want--armed with better insight and knowledge.

Exactly!




"I’m told I lie constantly when I say Linux is great — which is wild, because I’m apparently “misleading” you with things like: it boots, it runs my audio workflow, it stays stable, it gets updates, and it keeps existing despite being declared dead every year since forever. Also yes, it’s “too hard,” “too niche,” “no devs will ever care,” and “Linus complained once,” so clearly I must be fabricating my entire operating system out of pure delusion."
-----The Delusional Linux Advocate