Fruity or Reason

[TeeLangSun]

FL can load samples, but does not have a module that compares even with Reaon's NN-19 basic sampler, let alone the NN-XT advanced sampler.

An equivalent would be V-Sampler, or upgrading to something like Kontakt or Gigastudio, which cost around $499.

It's when you start to make comparissons like that - plus the stability, which you can't ignore - that Reason stacks up as a damn good bargain.

<EDIT> ...

...and to answer your other question, NN-XT can do synthesis stuff to your soundfonts that the Fruity Soundfont player isn't capable of.

A couple of things: You can't compare the NN-XT to Vsampler. Vsampler is vastly more powerful, more capable, and more featureful than NN-XT. The NN-XT is an excellent effort for a "built-in" sampler in a soft studio, but if you knew what Vsampler was capable of, then you'd know how foolish this comparison is. Have you ever used the NN-XT to auto beatslice a loop, automap the slices to keys and generate midi file, and assign the slices to separate channels on the mixer. Load a 3 minute sample streamed from disc, and chop at will? You ever edit a wave form in NN-XT in a window the size of your entire monitor? Zoom in and with the mouse scroll wheel to the position of the pointer? Used NN-XT as a standalone Sampler? Time Stretching and Pitch shifting in NN-XT. Import Wave, SF2, Gig, Halion, Kontakt, Kit, LM4, DLS, AKP, ISO, Akai, and EMU formats in NN-XT? Tried automating anything in the drop down window of the NN-XT? And when was the last time NN-XT was updated? At all, let alone for free. Someof the capabilities of Vsampler go beyond even what's possible in Reason as a whole, let alone what merely the NN-XT can do. Nothing in Reason will allow you to beatslice, or time stretch, or create a sf2.

I can see that you're really really enthusiastic about Reason, but you're making it out to be more than it is. You go way to far in saying that NN-XT belongs in the same sentence with Vsampler, Kontakt, or LOL, Gigastudio. You undoubtedly, have no idea what these samplers are capable of.

[Carbonboy]

I'd love to know what you were doing when FL Studio crashed.

I was trying to use it as a VST in Live 4, which I had recently purchased... it was the demo version of FL5. I sought help from IL but didn't get a polite/helpful response. I think others had the same difficulty.

Well, there you go, I have never (except for fun) rewired FL Studio to anything and it is rock solid (on the three PCs I have in my studio). Your original post said nothing about using rewire and gave the impression the core application was unstable. I see linking two complex applications (competing for resources) as a tough test of any systems stability, I certainly won't do it on any mission critical project, you should mention what you were doing. I see the other person in this thread claiming FL is unstable was also trying to rewire to Live 4. Looks like there could be a problem there. If tech-support are made aware of the problem then I am sure it will be fixed. However, how do you know it's FL Studio's fault?

I was actually testing the demo not to find fault but because I work in education and was seriously considering purchasing multiple copies of FL for use in schools in my area. So IL lost out on a few sales there.

You should talk to JMC he is always interested in 'educational' deals. How about rewiring Reason and FL Studio and telling me how stable that combination is?

I must say, that I find 'rewiring' stuff in an educational/teaching context a tad strange.

Carb.

[lucille]

The stability issue is a recurring strawman in these
Reason discussions--granted Reason is virtually uncrashable--but mosts daws--including FL--are very
stable today. If someone is consistantly crashing FL, I can only say the exeperience is very atypical.

[headquest]

An equivalent would be V-Sampler, or upgrading to something like Kontakt or Gigastudio, which cost around $499.

It's when you start to make comparissons like that - plus the stability, which you can't ignore - that Reason stacks up as a damn good bargain.

You go way to far in saying that NN-XT belongs in the same sentence with Vsampler, Kontakt, or LOL, Gigastudio. You undoubtedly, have no idea what these samplers are capable of.

You're right that to call NN-XT "equivalent" to V-Sampler was a mistake. Regarding the others though, you are misquoting me. I used the word "UPGRADE" specifically to indicate that I realise these dedicated samplers offer many more features than NN-XT does.

I do have an idea what Kontakt and Gigastudio are capable of, and in fact I am planing on buying one or the other (or possibly Mach5) later this year because in my own music I want to explore those features. V-Sampler is a piece of software I don't know so much about however, so pardon my mistake if you think it is in the same league as gigastudio et al.

But please don't try to make me look silly by misquoting me! The main point I was making is that there isn't anything directly comparable with NN-XT without spending a lot of extra money. Fruity loops does not give the ability to load large soundbanks or mangle samples in the way that Reason's devices do, and JMC confirmed as much in this thread. So in response to the original question, it is quite right to highlight that this difference exists, and inappropriate for FL users to misquote and invent reasons to flame me!

The cost of FL XXL is $299, while Kontakt 2 costs $499. Giving a total of $798, compared to Reason's $369. So buying FL plus Kontakt costs more than DOUBLE the cost of Reason. This is what I meant when stating that Reason "stacks up as a damn good bargain". And this is before you start to equip FL with other VSTs to compare it properly with Reason. For example the RV7000 reverb, DrRex, Scream4, Maelstrom, etc... none of which have comparable counterparts in FL, and would therefore need VST alternatives.

On the subject of NN-XT, it loads .wav, .aiff, sf2 and AKAI (using Reload), which covers all my needs. I don't have samples in the other formats you mention. But if you personally have a sample library disparate enough to include samples in those various formats I can see why you would find NN-XT limiting on that level.

NN-XT can, however auto-map samples, including recognising the volocity-layer information in the header. You imply it can't do that, but I can assure you that it does so instantaneously.

As you obviously know more about VST samplers that I do perhaps you could advise me. As I said, I am in the market for a better sampler to use as a VST within Tracktion 2. I don't want to waste money on something unnecessary however, and I need to know more about how Kontakt et al are better than NN-XT (other than sample formats which isn't an issue for me).

One question I have relates to routing. Swivel NN-XT around and you get access to the following in/outputs:

Sequencer Control: CV, Gate
Modulation Control: Osc Pitch, Filter Cutoff, Filter Res, LFO1 rate, Master volume, Pan, Modulation Wheel
Gate Inputs: Amp envelope, Mod envelope
Audio Outputs x 16

Bearing in mind the extent that CV cabling and audio routing NN-XT through Reason's other synths and effects modules extends it's power, can you advise me which VST samplers will allow you to CV cable to which other VSTs? For example, could I use Linplug Albino' arpeggiator to modulate Kontakt's filters, and then feed Kontakt's audio back into Albino for further synthesis? And would I need a different host to accomplish such routing?

[pHz]

you want a (more affordable) sampler for use in tracktion that can mangle and modulate ???

http://www.vemberaudio.com/products.php

http://www.xt-hq.com

slainte rob

[headquest]

I was trying to use it as a VST in Live 4

Well, there you go, I have never (except for fun) rewired FL Studio to anything and it is rock solid (on the three PCs I have in my studio). Your original post said nothing about using rewire ...
Carb.

Erm, you also misread what I said Carb. Loading FL as a VSTi is not the same as ReWire.

In fact FL worked fine using the ReWire protocol in Live 4. But it crashed when loaded as a VST.

...which says something about ReWire vs. VST, I guess

After trying a couple of times and crashing on both occasions, I looked on this forum, the FL forum and the Ableton's forum, and found there were threads complaining about this issue on all three. I'm not sure whether or not the issue was resolved in 5.0.1, because I had given up on the demo by that point.

You are quite right that the issue may be with Live 4, of course. Having purchased Live 4 I have been disappointed with a number of aspects of it.

I think the issue with loading/handling large audio files in FL is an issue to do with FL's core standalone functionality however. Or can that be blamed on somebody else as well?

[headquest]

you want a (more affordable) sampler for use in tracktion that can mangle and modulate ???

http://www.vemberaudio.com/products.php

http://www.xt-hq.com

slainte rob

Thanks Rob, I'll check that one out - I've not come across VemberAudio before. Can I get back to you for advice later (PM)?

Affordability isn't the key issue for me (although it is for my students!). I just want to make sure that I would be getting something that offers MORE than I already have with NN-XT, which is quite a lot! SO I need to define what that "more" is, and whether I would use it.

Cheers

[braj]

One question I have relates to routing. Swivel NN-XT around and you get access to the following in/outputs:

Sequencer Control: CV, Gate
Modulation Control: Osc Pitch, Filter Cutoff, Filter Res, LFO1 rate, Master volume, Pan, Modulation Wheel
Gate Inputs: Amp envelope, Mod envelope
Audio Outputs x 16

Bearing in mind the extent that CV cabling and audio routing NN-XT through Reason's other synths and effects modules extends it's power, can you advise me which VST samplers will allow you to CV cable to which other VSTs? For example, could I use Linplug Albino' arpeggiator to modulate Kontakt's filters, and then feed Kontakt's audio back into Albino for further synthesis? And would I need a different host to accomplish such routing?

Oh, man, don't go there! That's dangerous! People might get their minds blown!

Seriously, I haven't even begun to explore the depths of what Reason is capable of. I'm sure FL is capable of similar mind-blowing stuff though.

Regarding Fl's stability, my system doesn't have many issues otherwise stability wise. I'll have to try resetting the FL demo I gues and give it another try. If it crashes again though, I'll have to say 'never again'.

[Carbonboy]

I think the issue with loading/handling large audio files in FL is an issue to do with FL's core standalone functionality however. Or can that be blamed on somebody else as well?

If you are talking about SoundFonts...there are a few (2 that I know of) that give it some grief.

That's not a big deal.

Carb.

[headquest]

I think the issue with loading/handling large audio files in FL is an issue to do with FL's core standalone functionality however. Or can that be blamed on somebody else as well?

If you are talking about SoundFonts...there are a few (2 that I know of) that give it some grief.

That's not a big deal.

Carb.

No, I was refering to the issues raised here:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

...which seem to boil down to FL's way of handling audio files in RAM rather than streaming from disk... rather like the problem with Soundfont loading.

Until a couple of months ago I never bothered with soundfonts. Then I followed a link recommended by somebody here - which took me to the Titanic soundfont. I downloaded it and NN-XT was the only place I could get it to work, in spite of following the instructions from the Titanic site and changing Windows settings.

I've looked into the claim made earlier in the thread and now understand better that the NN-XT loads the individual samples rather than the full-on soundfont. Obviously I need to explore this further and will now download sfz once again and try the DFD option, which should indeed solve it.

I will be interested to see what the quality of the soundfont is via sfz in Tracktion. If the advice given earlier was correct then I would expect it to sound more lifelike and organic than it does in NN-XT.

To balance out this point, I should also say that the main reason I have not bothered with soundfonts prior to now is that Reason's multisampled/velocity layered soundbanks like the Orkester and Electromagnetic ReFills supplied free by Propellerheads have given me all the sounds I really need. And they are genuinely better/more suitable for my needs than the alternatives I have found so far, including soundfonts.

When demoeing FL, however, this was not the case. The bundled sounds are basically primitive to my ears compared with those in Reason. I guess that is why JMC says is looking at ways to improve this area of FL as a product.

So it was while looking at the FL demo that I considered soundfonts as an alternative... and came across the problem noted before.

[Dana1]

If you want something professional, buy Cubase or Orion. You can't get a decent mix with either FL or Reason, unless you mix later in ProTools (like Prodigy does for instance)

[nuffink]

If you want something professional, buy Cubase or Orion. You can't get a decent mix with either FL or Reason, unless you mix later in ProTools (like Prodigy does for instance)

What a load of wank.

[donkey tugger]

If you want something professional, buy Cubase or Orion. You can't get a decent mix with either FL or Reason, unless you mix later in ProTools (like Prodigy does for instance)

What a load of wank.

Indeed, these 'pros' who spout shite like this all the time, funny how they never have a link to their music anywhere.

[headquest]

But I found that SFZ also couldn't handle the Titanic soundfont (although unlike FL it didn't crash my system. I was running Sfz in Tracktion at the time I tried this). Perhaps this is all to do with the - to me - mysterious difference between "loading" and "importing" a soundfont.

Did you select the DFD (direct from disk) option in the SFZ interface, cause if you did not, youre still trying to load the entire bank onto your RAM.

Sidhu

Edit : Cant figure why FL cant impliment the DFD feature, everyone else has...

OK - thanks for the tip. Being new to soundfonts I didn't spot sfz could do that (no supporting documentation

Anyway, I now loaded the Titanic soundfont into sfz, so the answer you will be pleased to hear is "Yes", you can do this (preumably in FL - I did it in Tracktion).

Some related points though:

- I did an A/B of a few sounds (e.g., grand piano, flute, trumpet) using sfz/titanic soundfont and comparing against NN-XT (using Reason's own bundled refill samples). The Reason samples consistently sounded richer and more organic than sfz

- sfz dropped the first note in the MIDI clip (i.e. it didn't sound that note at all). I have always blamed Tracktion when this happens as it was a known bug a while back. However... and this is interesting... the dropped note DID NOT happen on the same clip when I substituted Reason via ReWire, or (even more interesting) when I substituted the Synth1 VST. The problem only occured when using sfz/soundfonts.

- sfz/soundfonts registered a significantly higher CPU hit than when substituting Reason/NN-XT

In conclusion, I won't personally be using sfz/soundfonts instead of Reason, but for students on a tight budget just starting out I guess that (with workarounds to solve the dropped note issue) sfz/soundfonts might be an answer until they can afford something better.

[JMC]

When demoeing FL, however, this was not the case. The bundled sounds are basically primitive to my ears compared with those in Reason.

You'll have to realise that FL Studio is mainly an online product that has to be downloaded.

Until last year that downloadable installer was about 20mb and the last installers are 30 mb (about 10mb of which are samples).

It's not really realistic to compare those sounds to soundbanks that can be 30mb or more for just the samples.

FL Studio users can download over 2gigabyte of samples from www.samplefusion.com.

See ya,

jmc (FL Studio)