FL Studio is amazing. Why is it so cheap?

[Ildon]

Why, because you are unable to grasp that what suits you may not suit everyone?

Sounds like someone I know.

[The Chase]

Why, because you are unable to grasp that what suits you may not suit everyone?

That one had me knackered as well!

[BONES]

I grasp it, that's why I think you're all idiots.

[vurt]

I grasp it, that's why I think you're all idiots.

[Ildon]

I grasp it, that's why I think you're all idiots.

[keyman_sam]

google video

[tony tony chopper]

It speaks volumes that you underestimate the importance of a good, usable GUI.

You don't understand what makes a usable GUI. You think I decided to split it in tabs to make it less usable on purpose? Did I invent tabs? A non-tabbed plugin is only important if you want to sacrifice features for a more direct access, for synths that behave like hardware. But I didn't want to sacrifice anything, and the few things you need to tweak live are in the main page. The rest is splitted in pages to be more understandable. Same in FM7 or Rhino btw.

Of course, someone who wrote something like 'keyboard shortcuts are a proof of bad GUI design' may not understand tabs neither.

[ninjadroid]

My own admission? Cite that.

Crystal and 3xOSC are in entirely different departments - there you go. Its not direct but that is certainly the inference.

You're literally mincing my words. That quote in its entirety read thusly:

"Well, in terms of use and intent, Crystal and 3xOSC are in entirely different departments, but you say that doesn't concern you."

How does that equate to me admitting that the free alternatives to FL's built-ins offer a greate range of possibilities?

But we're going by sounds, not features. So by what epistemology can you objectively say Orion's plugins give you sounds you can't get anywhere else, but FL's plugins can all be replaced by free alternatives?

IRP?

I don't know what that means, can you clarify?

They do offer lifetime free updates, its just that its not the big value factor that it might seem to be, as my example illustrates.

That's settled, then.

I am often flattered that my words are taken as fact but it should not be necessary for everyone to include "in my opinion" in every single sentence. I could read exactly the same into your posts if I gave any weight to you opinion and wanted to be a pendantic dickhead.

In this regard, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it is good to be clear about what is opinion/speculation and what is fact/logic.

Actually, the crux of my argument is degustibus non desputandem est --- in matters of taste there is no argument --- and that you are simply attempting to foist your tastes off as fact.

And you aren't? Its getting very close to the time I should just tell you to f**k off but in the meantime, why should I have to present my views in any less forceful manner than you? One reason will do.

Because I have not presented opinions as facts. Seriously. Go find an example of me doing as much. If I'm giving you my opinion, I will make it very clear.

I well and truly believe that Toxic is a wonderful synth, but there is objectively less tweakability in it than Sytrus.

Opinion or fact? Or just a different understanding of the term "tweakable"? I thought I explained what I mean by it and as your interpretation differs, it stands to reason that this statement is easily disputable.

I'd rather not get into semantic hair-splitting, so I will assert that offers you more control over more parameters in more ways than Toxic, and by a significant margin. This is fact. Look at the number of LFO's in the two respective programs, for instance.

However, it was designed to suit a different need than Sytrus, so that's not a point against it.

How do you know this? Have you asked each developer or gleaned this knowledge from anywhere? Or is it just your opinion being stated as fact?

No, this is fact. If Rich wanted Toxic to be an uber-tweaker (for my definition of 'tweak'), he would have given it more LFOs, envelopes, filters, etc. FM7 has been long established as the standard by which others are judged in this department. Orion itself is evidence of his competence as a programmer, there is certainly no technical reason he couldn't add all the doo-dads. That he implemented a simpler synthesizer indicates a concious decision to excise those features. Ergo, it is not designed to to solve the same problem. QED.

This is important, so it bears reiteration: I assert that your claim against the high VFFM of FL has no basis in fact.

Where did I assert this?

You said it in your first post:

"So I really don't see that FL is cheap or that it is particularly good value for money either, regardless of everything you might feel is good or bad about it or it's competition."

Rather, your subjective evaluation of the quality of FL's capabilities, divided by it's price, produces a number orders of magnitude less than its analogs for Orion and eXT.

Not really, they are all in the same ball-park, which kind of answers the question posed in the title of the thread, don't you think?

If you consider this your thesis, I find its absence from your original post to be supicious.

I'm beginning to get the impression that you do not fully understand how the FL layer tool works. It merely sends whatever pattern input it gets to its children. If you hit a C4, it will send a C4 to all of its children. Any children listening on a C4 will activate. Do you still deny that this is multisampler functionality?

I'll go further and deny the existence of such a thing as a "multisampler". Its a word you made up. What you're talking about is something you can easily do in anything and could have done with CV + Gate 30 years ago. Hardly earth-shattering.

But we're agreed that it does, in fact, offer multi-sampled instrument ability?

In this thread, you incorrectly reported the cost of Orion Platinum as $149. The correct price is $199.

Cool, that makes us one-all as you incorrectly asserted [and did as if it were a fact!] that eXT couldn't record audio.

Actually, I am on the record as saying that eXT has recorded audio from the get go[1], and when I accidentally questioned the inclusion of audio in a later post[2] (a simple slip-up), I openly and immediately retracted that.[3]

[1] "And eXT came with recording from the get-go."
[2] "If eXT inclues an FM synth, audio recording, and a multi-sampler, I didn't notice."
[3] "Actually, it does have audio recording, so I retract that."

In this thread, you incorrectly reported that Sytrus is in the price range of NI offerings. In actuality, the NI alternative to Sytrus, being FM7, costs $289, whereas Sytrus costs $179 --- making Sytrus 38% cheaper than its NI competition.

But you don't have to pay retail for NI products which puts them both in the $150-$250 price range, or we could say the $150-$300 range and be done with it. Personally I only have sub-$100 and over-$100 categories so it right there as well.

Pure opinion. You have your arbitrary price range, but the fact remains that the price of Sytrus is 38% less than the price of FM7. You are free to consider that insignificant, but the fact remains. And if you want to discuss non-retail prices, that's a different story --- and is there any reason to get into it?

In this thread, you incorrectly reported that the standalone cost of Toxic is $70. It is actually $89.11.

No, its free. Or around $100 for the VSTi. Of course exchange rates will have changed since yesterday so being as precise as you are is invalid and stupid [but hardly surprising].

http://gazuga.net/stuph/toxiccost.tiff

In this thread, you incorrectly reported that the savings over individual plugin purchasing that the XXL bundle offers you is $105. It is actually $275.

No, I didn't. I was quoting someone other idiot. Nice try though.

You said what you said, which was that the $348 dollar XXL edition saves you $105, which is false, considering actual savings are $275.

Also, you have been in the process of misrepresenting the capabilities of the FL layer plugin, as this post addresses.

Capabilities aside, the fact that it requires a plug-in and is not built-in to the host should be evidence enough that its not terribly well implemented, shouldn't it?

That's pure opinion, and I don't agree with it.

Sytrus is 38% cheaper than FM7. Do you argue that it is missing a proportional number of features? Once again, if you actually do a side by side, you'll see that there is actually stuff sytrus does that FM7 doesn't. And you can't squash this argument by divining an arbitrary price range from the heavens.

Why would I equate features with value? Seems very arbitrary to me. It completely ignores so many critical factors like sound quality and usability, both of which I would rank above features.

Features comparisons are reasonably objective, though. You can just say Sytrus sounds like crap and nobody can really tell you you're wrong --- but that's your opinion. And I take it this means my point that it is not in the same price range goes unchallenged.

It is cheap when compared against Pro Tools + the NI product line.

So f**king what? Its not competeing with those products and the simple fact, which still seems to elude you, is that the products with which it does compete offer similar value. Therefore, "It is so cheap" because it needs to remain competetive. Your arguments are all but totally irrelevant to the topic.

Actually, very early on, I said that FL and Orion occupy a very similar segment of the market. In fact, much of my argument has been that FL is at least in the same neighborhood as Orion when it comes to VFM. And obviously the OP was talking about FL vis-a-vis stuff like pro-tools. Do you really think he was comparing the $348 XXL edition of FL to the $199 edition of Orion and concluding that the former was cheap relative to the latter? Common sense revolts at that notion.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that, whether you know it or not (and you'll never admit it), you felt slighted that FL was the object of attention, and not Orion.

Not even close. It may surprise you to learn that I was once a Fruityloops beta tester. So unlike you I have a fairly extensive understanding of both products and a long association with each.

Hence your brilliant understanding of the layer plugin.

In fact I would probably still be using both if those complete c**ts hadn't arbitrarily decided that free speech did not impinge on their right to decide who should and should not be their customers and removed me from their registration list. So remember, if you really do like FL, never, ever, ever be critical of it in public or you may get the same treatment I did.

LOL! I busted gol's balls directly in LoopTalk about a couple of aspects of the program's design --- to no ill consequence, I might add. Maybe one day the carrot in my splash screen will get replaced by a giant scrotum, and then the joke will be on me. I'm not holding my breath, though.

But yes, it looks like you've got the motive to grind an axe with IL, which certainly appears to be what you're doing here. But hey, at least Orion has you on the One True Path to Salvation, right?



Note to sane Orion users: I actually think Orion is a terrific program. And like any program, it has its share of vocal retards. This picture is for them, and not you.

[The Chase]

To be honest i never found FM7 to be very impressive outside of it being old.

[John Vulich]

You don't understand what makes a usable GUI.

[arke]

You don't understand what makes a usable GUI.

[John Vulich]

[DavenH]

You don't understand what makes a usable GUI.

Cool font!

[The Chase]

You don't understand what makes a usable GUI.

hahaha which thread was that again?

[John Vulich]

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112504