Simuanalog

[Mutant]

virtual-guitarrist

double yuk

[jens]

yup - even tripple yuk - but he doesn't get it - I've discussed this with him more than once... - his productions are always über-top - yet they sound boring to me (and not only to me)...

[Sascha Franck]

me?

No.

I like Hinks playing - it sound authentic too me...and authenticity is the most important criteria for me when it comes to judging 'playability' - but tbh I doubt a bit that you get what I mean when I say this, Sascha...

I do get this perfectly.
You see, there's two things being happened in the past:

1) I "complained" about Hinks phrasing. I could've even come up with some samples about what was not pleasing me all that much, and I could as well have come up with some (really easy) methods to improve it as well. Heck, many moons ago I even wrote some uber-long installment on the matter, including sound samples and whatever, which seemed to have gotten quite some positive response.
Now, I hate to expand this too much right here in the public, but pretty much a lot of the things I'd have to critisize were things such as "oh, I play that lick because I know it", "oh, I can't follow the chords so I'll ignore them" and "oh, why should I ever not start/end a line on a (strong) onbeat?" - I may be completely wrong, but as a guitar teacher for almost 2 decades I have a rather distinctive hearing to spot such issues.
I'm not even saying anybody has to agree with my statements, but as said, I got some very positive response of both my students and other folks in the past, so it's not that everything I'm pointing out would always be wrong.
Ah yeah, I know, the good old "that's the personality in my playing" thing. Personality my ass! Sorry, but very often this is just an excuse for not trying to improve, even if it wouldn't even require lots of hours of practising - because I am surely *not* talking about technique most of the time. Heck, when I get some praise of my playing, it's almost *never* about the technical side of things. Simply because I'm not the uber-player at all.
It's just that, whenever you adress something involving "personality", people feel quite offended. And it's got nothing to do with personality at all, just with broadening your musical (and partially technical) horizon.
Anf fwiw, I'm not even remotely talking about technical perfection at all.

2) Very often during those guitar tech based threads, Hink would jump in, telling how great active PUs were. And while I even agreed that they would have their merits (less problems routing them into a DAW, less prone to noise, better clarity on larger FX based settings, whatever), I've never been able to spot their sonic advances in Hinks guitar sound.
Again, what he's been getting out of his setup might be totally up his alley, just that I can't spot anything special in there, eventually making it worth to think about the great performance of active PUs.

You may completely disagree with any of my points, but I stand by them. Or at least, by making them.

[jens]

You may completely disagree with any of my points

nope, I can't disagree with any of it. That sounds all absolutely reasonable.

just for the record:

I'm all for improving and also improving techniques. It is imo very important. But it's all just tools for me after all and imo there's no use in using tools for their own sake. So technique comes always second in my book and that's all I meant.

[jens]

oh, and another thing:

this 'active vs. passive pu' discussion must imo be one of the most boring in the history of kvr.

[Newbie Brad]

I once used a EMG 89 to get a 1 inch thick plywood guitar to sound good. My pal the luthier thought it sounded good and couldn't believe it.

[Sascha Franck]

I'm all for improving and also improving techniques. It is imo very important. But it's all just tools for me after all and imo there's no use in using tools for their own sake. So technique comes always second in my book and that's all I meant.

There's no way I would disagree with that.
As said, I've never been getting applauded for being such a technically skilled player at all. I do have some "chops" but it seems I'm using them less and less, simply because there's no need for any of them and because very often they just don't serve the music well either.

However, in the end, it *might* all be a matter of taste, and as we all know, that's quite a difficult thing to discuss at all. Yet, as a guitar player and musician, I believe in some approaches to broaden your (non-technical) skills. And I hardly ever found people to actually work on their phrasing. Simply because it can't be wrong, it's their "personality". Just for the record: I've been spending endless hours on improving my phrasing, never thinking it'd destroy my musical personality. More to the opposite. Once I've got the hang of it, it expanded my musical personality a whole freaking lot. And, unlike technical studies, it's been hours of fun.
Just as a very quick tip or to-try-thing: Take any of your solo noodling phrases (or melody fragments, if you don't do noodling) and shift some phrases back or forth by, say, an 8th note in your sequencer. Sounds entirely different? Sure. Sounds interesting and like something you could actually use? Probably. So, why not play that phrase shifted the next time you actually play it yourself? You can already do it, the technical challenge is close to zero.
These are the things I'm talking about.
I'm all for knowledge and experiments over stupidly aquired technical skills as well. For example, I prefer knowing that a Cj7 chord would result in a nice Amin9 (played over an A root of course) instead of learning some additional Amin9 voicings. Really, just the same as my phrasing example.

[Hink]

except, and this is where I have my problem...perhaps Sascha loses it in translation...but he did not "complain" about my phrasing..he stated in fact more than once it and my tone were "wrong" (change that one word and I have no problem)...not that he didn't like it..but wrong...I'm sorry, that's just plain offensive and is not constructive criticism...the worst part is Sascha I'm not sure you are aware of how much we agree on...but with both phrasing and tone being purely subjective and breaking those rules has gotten music where it is today...I have a little trouble with the word "wrong" describinvg it....there's a part of me that thinks scratching is really wrong ...I don't care who likes or dislikes my music, but to stand there and insist I am wrong on my artistic choice is a bit much don't you think?....two weeks ago when Sascha separated professionals and "just for fun" players yeah it pissed me off, that was very offensive as he stated that "just for fun players would never get what he is talking about". But it wasn't offensive to just me, but many.

I'm sorry if I'm passionate about my playing, but I am...however I couldn't give a rat's ass about money...and furthermore I see no way that making more money makes anyone better at anything, especially art.

Sascha if you can't spot the sonic differences between my first two songs on my page that's not my fault Or perhaps you haven't really listened to my music because it doesn't suit your taste (I'm cool with that 100%)...and furthermore I am quite slow at finishing songs so unless. we jammed on a regular basis the internet is not a good place to observe someones sonic advances...at least not an accurate one.

But pros vs. just for fun? That's just sad...some people, in fact many, many people likely will agree that those who do it for the love of music may actually be more passionate about music...professional has nothing to do with it.

Not agreeing with someones points is one thing, there's a lot to be gained by such, I said it inn this thread, being wrong is good...you learn....slamming the door shut and calling something "wrong" that is purely subjective shows me a close mind and doesn't do anyone any good. I am going to continue to pop in about active pick-ups because I like them (as do many), just like some people like whammy pedals and I hate them...but I would never put someone down for using it...it's just not my thing...but I have nothing to defend...playing has brought me inmeasurable pleasure over the years, and it will bring me more...and it brought me to KVR, a great place. I'm not going anywhere so I hope what you said earlier was true Sascha, I think we have a lot in common and everyone would be served better by us being friends...I know it's the ultimate wish for me. But I would really appreciate a little respect, with that comes tact....how about putting as much thought into your responses (and thoughtfulness) that I put into mine? Is that much to ask for? I'm not a troll, I'm not a wannabe who can't play, I don't judge your music, I do not put you down ...I am a man with feelings just like you...when I treat someone with respect I like to get the same back. You don't have to like my music to respect the effort I put it into it...if you can't see the effort it's because you do not want to. Because I am not just some hack...and that's all I am asking Sascha is the same respect I give you.

[Sascha Franck]

Can you point me to a post where I said your tone was "wrong", Hink?

[Hink]

Can you point me to a post where I said your tone was "wrong", Hink?

I wish I could Sascha, but it was a while ago...I wouldn't make it up though, I would hope you know that's not my style, perhaps it was a slip but it was something like this...I asked you a question about something you said and you did say "I've told you before your phrasing and tone is wrong"...I'm really not one to be mistaken about such things because I'm use to criticism...but I remember the ones that stand out as way out place, that was one. ...and you did make the pro/just for fun thing a couple of weeks ago...which I assumed was aimed at me.

[Sascha Franck]

Hink, I'm sure (and you can do all the KVR searches you want) that I *never* said "wrong".
Even if I'm not a native speaker, I am rather careful with my choice of words.

So, your point has yet to be proven, sorry.

[Hink]

Hink, I'm sure (and you can do all the KVR searches you want) that I *never* said "wrong".
Even if I'm not a native speaker, I am rather careful with my choice of words.

So, your point has yet to be proven, sorry.

well Sascha...I asked if there was anything wrong with my playing

you read, page 29 half way down but in fairness you did say it was just your opinion, still wrong and you admit it wasn't the first time...so maybe in those posts you corrected yourself too...but I cannot remember a good word you ever said about my music so whatever..

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... huck+berry

btw if you're wondering how I found it I remember saying I bet a lot od people said the same on Chuck Berry's phrasing...so I searched on Chuck Berry

[Sascha Franck]

I didn't use the word "wrong" at all. And that's what you were so upset about.
I said your phrasing could need some workout, and I stand by it. And as far as the rest of your music goes, do I *have* to make a comment? I may not like it, so what? I may even like it, so what #2?

However, later on in that thread you stated that you were happy with your tone and phrasing, so I take it you wouldn't want/need/take any advice either.
In addition, you even said you'd never judge anyone on those. Well, myself, musically, I will *only* judge on things such as those.

[Sascha Franck]

so maybe in those posts you corrected yourself too...

As you can see by the non existing "edited" tag, I didn't.
I *never* used the word "wrong".

[Hink]

I didn't use the word "wrong" at all. And that's what you were so upset about.
I said your phrasing could need some workout, and I stand by it. And as far as the rest of your music goes, do I *have* to make a comment? I may not like it, so what? I may even like it, so what #2?

However, later on in that thread you stated that you were happy with your tone and phrasing, so I take it you wouldn't want/need/take any advice either.
In addition, you even said you'd never judge anyone on those. Well, myself, musically, I will *only* judge on things such as those.

well I don't want to drag this on any further than this

We just love it when people overreact, don't we?
Hink, why don't you just calm down and do some guitar phrasing lessons?

guitar phrasing lessons? Something wrong with my playing?

Then your response, the first word was Yes...sounds like you're saying it's wrong...if a cop asked you if you shot someone and you said yes, I think it would mean you shot them

we can drop it and get along or not..I prefer to get along...but I didn't only say I would not judge music based on that...I wont judge music period...we can agree to disagree on that very easily...you come from an educational background and I come from a different background...out of the two of us you are truly more qualified to judge if anyone is.

btw you misunderstood me, I didn't mean you edited the post, I meant you might of said something similar in other posts...sorry for that confusion.

Have a good night I really have more pressing things in my life than to deal with egos...I hope we can be friends, if not KVR is a big place and I am hapy with my tone and phrasing...and it's better now than when I said that before and will be better everyday...whether you like it or not...but it will never be better than anyone else...