2015 EU VAT rules ("MOSS")

[do_androids_dream]

Concerning mix/mastering engineers. A definitive quote from here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-services - under 'Defining Electronically Supplied' states the following:

"Individually commissioned content sent in digital form eg, photographs, reports, medical results"

to be NOT covered by the new rules so, as far as I can see, we can carry on as before without any new compliances. I've yet to confirm whether this definition is EU wide (as this is from the UK gov website).

[Cyforce]

do you know this website?

http://www.taxamo.com/

for a fixed 0.20€ each transaction they say that will handle the moss stuff for you, and the i have a plugin for many ecommerce platform...

Saverio
hornetplugins.com

Thanks for that link, looks promising.
Somebody use this already and can share his first impressions of it?

[Compyfox]

Anyone using Patreon for projects?
If so, how are the rules in this case?


Oh and - thank you once more to all the dedicated people in this thread to shed some light on this.
Though I still wonder - if we offer a service (directed at Android), does the client have to pay the VAT of my country (the place of service taken), or no VAT at all? What about US clients asking for service from an EU engineer?

I don't worry about local area services at this point - German ground is 19% VAT. Might get higher this year however... at least if it goes by our politicians (in this case, we'd already be at 21% by now).

[do_androids_dream]

Though I still wonder - if we offer a service (directed at Android), does the client have to pay the VAT of my country (the place of service taken), or no VAT at all? What about US clients asking for service from an EU engineer?

I don't think there's any onus on a consumer to pay VAT on anything. VAT is only charged by the service/goods provider if they meet certain criteria (ie. the new EU laws or earning over a certain threshold). That's as far as I understand things.

[Ghostwave]

So I've tried to find more info about this since I need to comply for my little soundbank business and my conclusion is: it's a HUGE MESS!

In my country, I am a civil servant. That means that since I work for the State I cannot run a microbusiness for longer than two years but I'm allowed to sell stuff derived from intellectual property (books/ebooks, music and, by extention, synth presets) for an unlimited time.

So my microbusiness status only lasted for 6 months since I could continue selling soundbanks afterwards without paying the 23% tax required for microbusinesses (I still declare the extra income in my yearly report but it is not considered business income).
But that also means that I don't have a company number anymore and that therefore, I cannot register for VAT MOSS in France.

So basically, the French law says I'm allowed to sell soundbanks but due to the new ruling, I'm not allowed to.
Besides, many local tax offices are reporting (contrary to European commissioner Pierre Moscovici's statement) that the VAT threshold does apply.

The bottom line is that I will be back in business sooner than expected and if I have to resort to civil desobedience, then be it so. I won't charge VAT to anyone.
If they can't make the bloody laws applicable for everyone, then they have to rewrite them.

[ThomasHelzle]

A remark on Bandcamp:
Both Bandcamp and my tax-advisor (german) say that I don't need to worry about the new rules for selling through Bandcamp, since they act as the (re-) seller and I only deal with them, not directly with the individual customers. So I'm crossing my fingers that this actually holds true.
(I'm tax registered already as a freelancer though, so your mileage may vary).

Cheers,

Tom

[audiothing]

A remark on Bandcamp:
Both Bandcamp and my tax-advisor (german) say that I don't need to worry about the new rules for selling through Bandcamp, since they act as the (re-) seller and I only deal with them, not directly with the individual customers. So I'm crossing my fingers that this actually holds true.
(I'm tax registered already as a freelancer though, so your mileage may vary).

Maybe I'm wrong or I can't understand this situation with Bandcamp. Since you are still receiving the payment directly from the customer to your Paypal account, and since Bandcamp doesn't (yet?) cut the VAT out of that payment, how are you supposed to declare those transactions?
When you get a payment to your Paypal account for a digital good (sample libraries, plugins, music, etc...) you have to deal with the new regulations. Why this should be different with Bandcamp?
I really hope I'm wrong but it looks like they completely misinterpreted the new rules.

[do_androids_dream]

A remark on Bandcamp:
Both Bandcamp and my tax-advisor (german) say that I don't need to worry about the new rules for selling through Bandcamp, since they act as the (re-) seller and I only deal with them, not directly with the individual customers. So I'm crossing my fingers that this actually holds true.
(I'm tax registered already as a freelancer though, so your mileage may vary).

Maybe I'm wrong or I can't understand this situation with Bandcamp. Since you are still receiving the payment directly from the customer to your Paypal account, and since Bandcamp doesn't (yet?) cut the VAT out of that payment, how are you supposed to declare those transactions?
When you get a payment to your Paypal account for a digital good (sample libraries, plugins, music, etc...) you have to deal with the new regulations. Why this should be different with Bandcamp?
I really hope I'm wrong but it looks like they completely misinterpreted the new rules.

Basically there is a distinguishment between Business 2 Consumer and Business 2 Business transactions (as you may already know). The HMRC flow chart seems to blanket term any 3rd party as a Business 2 Business transaction which means the rules don't apply there. Obviously don't take my word for it but that is what seems to be the case.

[audiothing]

Basically there is a distinguishment between Business 2 Consumer and Business 2 Business transactions (as you may already know). The HMRC flow chart seems to blanket term any 3rd party as a Business 2 Business transaction which means the rules don't apply there. Obviously don't take my word for it but that is what seems to be the case.

Sure, but, at least for now, Bandcamp doesn't collect the payments, I still receive the payments directly from customers. That's not B2B.

[coincidental]

I agree what's happening with Bandcamp sales at the moment is frustrating and seems to make no sense given their announcements. However, as a seller I reckon you should be OK. For a start, they are an intermediary as the regulations see it (they fulfil the purchase), and what's more they have also made it very clear that they're going to take on that role. I would guess there's going to be some sort of adjustment payment required fairly soon, because, as you say, they don't seem to be charging VAT correctly for EU customers yet. Who will pay that and how remains to be seen, but I imagine they've been in discussion with the taxation authorities somewhere in the EU and reached an agreement as regards timing of the changeover. The authorities will just be happy to have a big player like Bandcamp on board, so perhaps they've reached an arrangement regarding phasing it all in at some point. Hopefully this won't affect us sellers at all, except of course depressing sales to EU countries once they have VAT added.

Bandcamp's business model is clearly yet another thing that EU legislators were ignorant of when this was all agreed back in 2008 - in fact I don't think the "withholding every X payment" system even existed back then. So when Pierre Moscovici rules out a de minimis threshhold on the grounds that it's not what was originally agreed he just makes himself look poorly briefed, and draws attention to the fact that the regulation was out of date before it was introduced.

It's not too late to get some changes made, though, and I would urge anyone in the EU to write to their MEP, asking them to lobby Pierre Moscovici and Donato Raponi. Many MEPs welcome the opportunity to do something useful! The UK government now actually seem to have changed their policy on this, and we need more lobbying from other EU countries so it doesn't just seem like the UK being difficult again.

[ThomasHelzle]

The reply from Bandcamp was this:

"We're working as quickly as possible to implement all of the elements necessary for collecting VAT on digital sales. In the meantime, you should not need to report the digital-only sales, as the responsibility is ours, not yours."

I agree it's not entirely clear and they didn't provide me with any further details as I had asked for, but they have a broader back than me and may be willing to take on the authorities.

Cheers,

Tom

[elassi]

...they are obviously prioritizing big companies...

This seems to be the one and only explanation. While they officially pretend to stop tax loss due to 'certain' conditions for big players they indeed fulfill their wishes: freeing the market from little (or niche) competitors and leaving the business to enterprises that can afford to handle those regulations.

Even more lies: Day in, day out they talk about true competition, free economy and support of entrepreneurship within an unified European market. This law is the opposite. It kills all of the above mentioned targets.

[seismic1]

Even more lies: Day in, day out they talk about true competition, free economy and support of entrepreneurship within an unified European market. This law is the opposite. It kills all of the above mentioned targets.

I know E.Used to do nice stuff for you,
But what has he done for you lately?

[arkmabat]

Though I still wonder - if we offer a service (directed at Android), does the client have to pay the VAT of my country (the place of service taken), or no VAT at all? What about US clients asking for service from an EU engineer?

I don't think there's any onus on a consumer to pay VAT on anything. VAT is only charged by the service/goods provider if they meet certain criteria (ie. the new EU laws or earning over a certain threshold). That's as far as I understand things.

Technically speaking, in many states in the USA for anything bought used the buyer has to pay a use tax to the state. Even yard sale items. No joke.

[Wildfunk]

This "new" rule (paying taxes in customer's country) is valid already for us-companies since 2003.

But i doubt that all those small "companies" with non-business-accounts on PayPal paying their taxes in the EU...