Zappa - what a tight music arranger

[Numanoid]

so trying to claim that 4/4 is unnatural is simply self serving speculation based on ignorance.

Maybe Zappa was to uptight, to venture outside "foor to the floor", it pays to be a bit sloppy, some "accidents" adds mojo to the final result

[ghettosynth]

so trying to claim that 4/4 is unnatural is simply self serving speculation based on ignorance.

Maybe Zappa was to uptight, to venture outside "foor to the floor", it pays to be a bit sloppy, some "accidents" adds mojo to the final result

Of course four to the floor is not the same thing as 4/4, it is merely a subset. Really though, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but of that Zappa was uptight there can be little doubt.

An interesting read for those who are open minded enough to consider it is Mark J. Butler's book "Unlocking the Groove." He makes a case for the diversity and complexity of rhythmic structures in contemporary dance music, yes, especially with "four on the floor", and he does it through traditional methods, i.e. detailed analysis of transcriptions. Mark Butler is currently a professor in the department of music at University of Pennsylvania.

[jancivil]

maybe the only performance of this - radio broadcast of Kent Nagano and Berkeley:

[Harry_HH]

This dicussion concerning the groove/tempo bpm is very interesting, brings add-on value to me, anyway. No matter what my own opinion here is (I'm just making it), I salute diversity, because you learn through it. "Every day you change your opinion is a good day, because you have learned something new."

[jancivil]

I remember well a video tutorial for Cubase 4, which took that Pretenders song 'got legs, I'm gonna use 'em' (whatever that's called) to illustrate the Warp Time feature. Here's a fairly steady pedestrian beat, and the BPMs weren't consistent for even whole bars, if you really make the timeline conform to the beat.
Metronomic time isn't groovy. Even metronomes can't be a 100% reliable clock, only the computer can.

anyway, the Sinister Footwear I isn't a very good performance but it's what there is. I, II, and III amount to a very smooth sort of larger form, particularly considering the derivation and the ad hoc methodology of it all. It's not a lumpy gravy.

oh, as to the earlier comment, I wouldn't myself look to Mo's Vacation for chords, or harmonic anything, it's linear 'atonal counterpoint' which FZ was interested in real early.
It exists as that, a band version for at least 1978 and maybe '79 (80s I don't know, but he rented a motel room for Scott Thunes to learn it as his audition in 1981), and a big orchestral version known as Mo 'n Herb's Vacation. That one, bass ww and drums, is my preference because the orchestra effect is diffusive (probably not so accurate) and the band version has a lot of overtones - heavy on the vibraphone - and this smaller rendition is more transparent.

[ghettosynth]

Metronomic time isn't groovy. Even metronomes can't be a 100% reliable clock, only the computer can.

It's well known that real drummers don't play in lock step to a tempo, that's exactly why electronic music is different and why it works as it does.

Like I said, if you want to understand how metronomic time forms the basis of a groove, don't take my word for it, read Mark Butler's book. He uses methods you'd approve of, you're going to have to open your mind to get it though.

[jancivil]

STRONG

[herodotus]

so trying to claim that 4/4 is unnatural is simply self serving speculation based on ignorance.

Maybe Zappa was to uptight, to venture outside "foor to the floor", it pays to be a bit sloppy, some "accidents" adds mojo to the final result

Of course four to the floor is not the same thing as 4/4, it is merely a subset. Really though, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but of that Zappa was uptight there can be little doubt.

An interesting read for those who are open minded enough to consider it is Mark J. Butler's book "Unlocking the Groove." He makes a case for the diversity and complexity of rhythmic structures in contemporary dance music, yes, especially with "four on the floor", and he does it through traditional methods, i.e. detailed analysis of transcriptions. Mark Butler is currently a professor in the department of music at University of Pennsylvania.

Sigh

[herodotus]

In any case, the phrase 'tight arranger' doesn't quite make sense to me, because to me 'tight' applies not to writing, but to performance.

But I do think that he knew how to cater to the gifts of the musicians that he worked with. Imagine if Vinnie Colaiuta had never met Zappa. No one would ever have learned what a freakishly gifted rhythmic intellect he was.

[Firebird]

I salute diversity,...

Yes, well said.
In a sea of average music and repeating styles, Zappa pushed the limits in many ways.
He was one of the only rock musicians to be respected and appreciated by classical modern composers.
That in itself is a major accomplishment.

[herodotus]

^rehearsal tapes

This thing is outstanding in every way
the original on Thing-Fish isn't arranged for the band like this. This is very grandiose.



originally it did this

I agree completely about the amazing transformation of this song. And it can not be denied that a great deal of why these songs work is that the musicians playing them are as gifted as they come.

[herodotus]

Another great transformation is from this



to this:

[ghettosynth]

so trying to claim that 4/4 is unnatural is simply self serving speculation based on ignorance.

Maybe Zappa was to uptight, to venture outside "foor to the floor", it pays to be a bit sloppy, some "accidents" adds mojo to the final result

Of course four to the floor is not the same thing as 4/4, it is merely a subset. Really though, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but of that Zappa was uptight there can be little doubt.

An interesting read for those who are open minded enough to consider it is Mark J. Butler's book "Unlocking the Groove." He makes a case for the diversity and complexity of rhythmic structures in contemporary dance music, yes, especially with "four on the floor", and he does it through traditional methods, i.e. detailed analysis of transcriptions. Mark Butler is currently a professor in the department of music at University of Pennsylvania.

Sigh

Which part didn't you get, perhaps I can elaborate for you?

[Harry_HH]

Another great transformation is from this



to this:

I enjoyed the #1 more - I think its more about two different songs than about the transformation.

P.s Concerning the "tight" arranger, the point of that definition is to underline the fact that very often Zappa's approach for composing and arranging resembles classical music approach: all parts are scored, Zappa has in his head clear musical picture what he wants, and he is "dictator" more than the leader of the group which creates the arrangemeng during the playing/rehearsals. How much Zappa allowed improvisation (I don't mean improvisation inside a small, restricted part, e.g. in solo, but in the broader sense)? Maybe this is documented somewhere, e.g. by the band members.

[jancivil]

I can speak to this somewhat.

Alien Orifice, a huge favorite of mine. Ok, once the 'Zappa Family Trust', pretty much just Gail then, started selling some scores I bought several. So, Alien Orifice and Drowning Witch (two I clearly recall) had the complicated scored parts, and all the bits of A.O. were complete. These were professionally copied, it looked like. It may have been Zappa's hand, though, he signed them. 1981. This apparently was what was given to the band in 1981. Now, he was teaching the thing to a 1980 group, revealed in a youtube known as 'Birth of Drowning Witch', so I guess - from hearing the rehearsals and questions and copying mistakes (and Frank not remembering!) - that was different parts handed out than 1981.

Drowning Witch had yet to become what it was on the album. By quite a ways. There are numerous versions of live takes of it where the first part, which is not written out (a bare sketch) has the band responding in various ways, kind of Mickey Mousing the words. NB: on the unreleased Chalk Pie double album, it's a little different than the release. The section after the second guitar solo isn't, in any of the live shows I heard, voiced like it is on the album. He writes in the liner notes about 15 edits for this idealized final release. The first guitar solo, with this jagged 9/8 thing underneath, has Scott Thunes doing some really abstruse things with the time, and this was def. not in the score. So this 15 edits, while Frank talks about how they never quite got it in real time, has a lot to do with getting this idealized Scott Thunes part on record. Way up above in this thread, I believe I indicated that the You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore vol 5 disc 2 RDNZL is a stitched together ideal take. The guitar solo in the video is on the record, the weird half-tempo theme is not and I think only the guitar solo is. So this is what he did in the early 80s.

Alien Orifice, one of the things I was avid about getting was the walking bass in the first section. IT ISN'T THERE. Frank did not write one. Just chords. Those '2 chords', just like they appear in Black Page #2, with just roots for the bass. That is Scott Thunes. And it's an integral part of the composition, Frank was fine with delegating it.

NOW-a-days, there are a number of things somebody copped of the rehearsal tapes, mostly Arthur Barrow's tapes so he could remember what happened to prepare for the next day. Birth of I'm a Beautiful Guy shows he came in with a sketch of a tune and a whole_lot of it was created with the band. It's almost shocking. Birth of Any Kind of Pain - 1981, which wasn't realized until 1988 - the melody isn't quite there, even.

So, the notion of Frank Zappa coming in with everything done and the band learns it by rote is not true, except for the really hard shit. The rock tunes, probably nothing written. He didn't have sheet music on stands onstage for the rock band ever. And the ethos of the live show was _it's different every night_.