Black innovation?

[oldevil]

o'joy! mention 'black' or 'white' in any context in the US and you'll have flames, no matter the subject. just a fact of life here in the US.. so, here goes, crucify me... but blues and jazz, both 'black' music, would be totally dead if left to the black audience. both forms are currently(key word here) alive solely because of white musicians. i listen to both and most black amerikans couldn't name a blues or jazz musician if their lives depended on it. one day rap/hiphop may be in the same situation as the majority of fans in those genres are young white males. kinda underlines the point that race doesn't define music - maybe in the short run, but not in the long run.(see blues and jazz above)you can probably add rock to this as well.. however, there are exceptions with all these genres. i just hate that race has to be injected in everything... and Bones: as far as blues and British music ever heard of Savoy Brown, Eric Clapton, almost every British musician from the 60's and 70's... jeeees.... peace

[Hink]

o'joy! mention 'black' or 'white' in any context in the US and you'll have flames, no matter the subject. just a fact of life here in the US.. so, here goes, crucify me... but blues and jazz, both 'black' music, would be totally dead if left to the black audience. both forms are currently(key word here) alive solely because of white musicians. i listen to both and most black amerikans couldn't name a blues or jazz musician if their lives depended on it. one day rap/hiphop may be in the same situation as the majority of fans in those genres are young white males. kinda underlines the point that race doesn't define music - maybe in the short run, but not in the long run.(see blues and jazz above)you can probably add rock to this as well.. however, there are exceptions with all these genres. i just hate that race has to be injected in everything... and Bones: as far as blues and British music ever heard of Savoy Brown, Eric Clapton, almost every British musician from the 60's and 70's... jeeees.... peace

I think you leave out some key factors...one being location, that might be true in your experience...but that's hardly a universal way of thinking imo. I listen to musicchoice a lot, blues is one I have on my favorites for scrolling through...I can assure that there are many fine, young, black blues players as well as many older ones that set the table for them.

It seems too me you are basing your comment on main stream pop...blues has never been about being mainstream. It survives because culturally it's so diverse and it lives off of the local scenes more then on the big stage. In fact I will be as bold as to say that the most culturally balanced shows I have been to have been blues shows...not a flame or jumping on you, just pointing out some things you might of missed....

[Amberience]

Music is music no matter the origin. This is 13 pages of intellectual wankery.

[Left Headphone]

o'joy! mention 'black' or 'white' in any context in the US and you'll have flames, no matter the subject. just a fact of life here in the US.. so, here goes, crucify me... but blues and jazz, both 'black' music, would be totally dead if left to the black audience. both forms are currently(key word here) alive solely because of white musicians. i listen to both and most black amerikans couldn't name a blues or jazz musician if their lives depended on it.

B.B. King(blues), W.C. Handy(jazz), Denise LaSalle(blues), Muddy Waters(blues)... I could continue. Does this mean I get to stay alive... OMG dude, how many black people do you even know? You have the typical Southern white view of black people. But not all Southern whites share you bias views... Thank God...

[oldevil]

hink, i see your point. it probably has a lot to do with location. sure, ther are some young black blues artists, but, as you said 'young'; there's been a long period where most of the blues and jazz people haven't been black...most of the black blues players are either very young or very old(again, there are exceptions)there's a big gap in there..same with jazz. but my opinions(and they are just opinions, like every other post in this increasingly ridiculous thread) aren't based on the mainstream, just personal observations. hell, i don't know what mainstream is, it seems to depend on who's talking...m&m IS mainstream as far as i can tell. maybe i'm wrong...it doesn't matter anyway...

[Cordelia]

It would be nice if race weren't an issue with regards to music, I know it isn't an issue to most musicians I know.
But in the U.S. music industry, especially in radio, it is a BIG issue. Most U.S. "urban" stations (those owned by Viacom and Clear Channel for example) have a policy officially called "putting a black face" on urban radio.
What that means is, black artists are allotted a finite amount of airplay time, while white artists like Eminem and Kid Rock who are creating "urban" music are given the bulk of the rotation, and the fees (independent promotion fees) normally demanded from record labels for spins are waived.
This is because the executives and program directors at these stations are trying to attract a young, white male, suburban audience, and they truly believe that if not for white rappers, young American males would not tune in. Whether or not that assumption is based on statistical evidence, I'm not sure.
To sit down at dinner with executives from Viacom and Clear Channel is to take a trip waaay back in time. I have been absolutely shocked by their blatant and unapologetic racism.
So, the road to airplay for a black rapper in the U.S. is a long, hard, expensive one, but a white male artist creating "black" music is seen as a savior.
Soulkraka, I'm sorry you feel invisible, but you're right- Elvis, Glenn Miller, Eminem, the Beastie Boys.. This is not a random pattern. Racism in the U.S. music industry is institutionalized, it's far uglier than most of us could imagine.
So, what's the next new thing? I don't know, but I do know we won't hear much of it on U.S. radio until a white boys mimics it, waters it down, makes it more appealing to young white males, and by then it won't really be new at all.

[Left Headphone]

I'm a big Vanilia Ice fan. I think...

[Cordelia]

Left, left, baby...
nooooo....

[tee boy]

Teeboy wrote:

But no matter what, jazz and blues are firmly rooted in European music.

I write: give an example. Have your ever examined your typical twelve-bar blues progression? Nothing like it exists in European music. From a Euro-theoretic perspective, the twelve bar blues doesn't make "musical" sense, but it works. Bop musicians in the 40's borrowed liberally from people like Debussy, some of their chordal progressions, but it also went the other way. Consider Debussy's "Golliwog Rag."

Ciao!

I have studied blues music, yes. Well Im a guitarist - we all have!

I dont know vast amounts of the origins of blues, but it strikes me more as a kind of folk style than anything. The use of pentotonic and dorian would suggest this.

But when I say blues is based on European music, Im talking at a far more fundamental level. The use of 3rd intervals to create triads, the dominant 7th etc, are all Western. At least they didnt originate in Africa to my knowledge.

I stand by the quoted statement. Blues and Jazz are derivatives of Western music. Just as Metalica is a derivative of the Beetles (yet I dont remember John using an ESP ).

[tee boy]

HEY!

But for anyone just tuning in, you might want to zip back a few pages and read my easier posts. This quote could be taken quite out of context all too easily.

Just to clarify my stance - respect the artist, not his race. 'Black' music is a racist term imo, since it points to a proprietary relationship between the music and race.

Imo, Blues and Jazz are variations of Western principles developed by some extremely talented black artists.

[soulkraka]

Music is music no matter the origin. This is 13 pages of intellectual wankery.

possibly, but I know I learned a lot.

[BONES]

the black influence ruins it every time.

rofl...I just listened to the music on your page and.....you use breakbeats in some of your songs!

Does it sound bluesy or is it just sitting somewhere in the mix to fill in a gap? There may be elements there, its largely impossible to avoid, but they certainly never dominate.

my lord how stupid can one opinion make a man look?

I don't like blues or blues-influenced rock, how the f**k is that stupid? I am currently teaching for this guy who is right into all the stuff I don't like and he can't get his head around why I can like something like New Model Army and not like Thin Lizzy or how I can be into Rammstein and not Motorhead but to my ears they have not one thing in common.

You obviously aren't going very far back historically with your 'british' rock (which paid a great deal of homage to blues at a time when in america it was still considered 'black' music - in the pejorative sense).
So i'm quite clear that these are your own labels.

There was no good music before punk, everybody knows that. Its all American rock before that time.

[whyterabbyt]

BONES quoth he can't get his head around why I can like something like New Model Army and not like Thin Lizzy

Hehehe. Folk music. Banjos, fiddles, and clogs...

[The Chase]

technically speaking since original man was black, everything is black innovation - including music.

[soulkraka]

bones...just stop now, really.