Repro-1 (out now)

[Urs]

1) Are you working on alternate filter settings?

Yes. there are 3 alternate filter settings, but they all sound like three Pro-Ones sitting next to each other.

There is no way to calibrate the Pro-One filter circuit to not have a volume drop when opening resonance. There are two possible alterations to the circuitry: One makes the filter unrealistically squelchy, the other one makes the resonance so loud, it could blow your speakers. If you like the squelchy one, check out ACE - it's designed to do that very well.

2) Polyphony - Don't be mean! We all want a poly pro one if we can have one!

We won't do it for this plug-in, but a polyphonic version with similar circuitry and a slightly different feature set is being discussed at u-he. Can not yet say what, if, how and when.

[legendCNCD]

I have a little demo track to share with youz - all REPRO, all delicious! Thanks U-He for another synth home-run.

Nice! Bit on the thin&middy side on some sounds but they sound gorgeous. Love that arp sound.

[PAK]

It's like you never used a real ladder filter design, they all have bass drop-off with increased resonance. That's just how things are. Need bass intact? Use a different synth, or use Sonic Conditioner in Repro-1 to compensate this a bit. But that bass drop-off is a characteristic of ladder filter design and that's that.

Well, except when it's not so black and white..

EG Over-cooking the res / bass loss response is one of Diva's issues when it comes to doing certain ladder bass sounds well. An example, I gave from the earliest public beta, was West End Girls by the Pet Shop Boys. It's a bass sound with some resonance, but which isn't all-out squelchy. In that middle zone there's very little wiggle room in Diva, and it will struggle sometimes.

Now there's good alternatives, like Monark or The Legend. You will notice that, indeed, bass drops when you increase resonance in these synths too, just as expected from a ladder design.

But.. it's also possible to get a more useful range out of the resonance before it's less useful for bass sounds. Meaning you can copy such bass sounds very well in both Legend and Monark. You will have to switch to the Uhbie filter type to attempt to do it better with Diva.

Don't rely on my words.. go and try it.

"Ahh, but Diva isn't a Minimoog emulation". To which I'd say.. all three are ladder filters. All three cut bass with resonance. One of them is cutting more bass at certain settings.

The point being it's never quite so simple as to say something "is supposed to do that". The frequency points, and the amount of resonance required, is also a very big factor - not just the fact that it does it.

Synapse Legend deserves a special mention here, btw, as it includes some limited calibration control over this stuff..

Also none of this is meant as commentary on RePro.. A lot of people seem to be missing the point of a 1:1 emulation with RePro

which is a reason why both do not seem to be able of self-oscillation (same also seems to be true for the free OBXD softsynth).

Yep. Though, even where self-oscillation is included, it's often been a ticked a box. There needs to be proper modeling at those full resonance settings too. It tends to be one of those places where, traditionally, you could pull more detail out of analogue hardware.

[EvilDragon]

"Ahh, but Diva isn't a Minimoog emulation". To which I'd say.. all three are ladder filters. All three cut bass with resonance. One of them is cutting more bass at certain settings.

The point being it's never quite so simple as to say something "is supposed to do that".

...except if Hans' Minimoog does that, then it IS supposed to behave like that.

[PAK]

"Ahh, but Diva isn't a Minimoog emulation". To which I'd say.. all three are ladder filters. All three cut bass with resonance. One of them is cutting more bass at certain settings.

The point being it's never quite so simple as to say something "is supposed to do that".

...except if Hans' Minimoog does that, then it IS supposed to behave like that.

Bah. Hans Zimmer and his snowflake Minimoog.

Though I will say, both this aspect, as well as the tamer Feedback can't be totally blamed on Diva's code, since other modes don't have quite the same limitations. So, to some degree, it's clear the limitation was intended and, in the end, it actually provides a greater contrast to other filter types than it otherwise might have.

Still overcooked though

[Urs]

Don't rely on my words.. go and try it.

You mean, like this?



(init patch /w 1 Osc at square wave, filter fully open, then 2nd spectrum with res set to max)

[electro]

2) Polyphony - Don't be mean! We all want a poly pro one if we can have one!

We won't do it for this plug-in, but a polyphonic version with similar circuitry and a slightly different feature set is being discussed at u-he. Can not yet say what, if, how and when.

Keeping Repro-1 monophonic is the right choice. A naming suggestion for he next synth "Repro-5".

[AnX]

An example, I gave from the earliest public beta, was West End Girls by the Pet Shop Boys. It's a bass sound with some resonance, but which isn't all-out squelchy.

Which synth was used tho? Nobody seems to agree what it was....

[PAK]

Don't rely on my words.. go and try it.

You mean, like this?

Well, I was meaning more creating specific sounds than looking at graphs.. But visual information is one method.. Sure!

The problem is.. it's visual information.. about audio..

So the information it communicates is rather limited.. If it wasn't then your job would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?

Best to stick with ears, where possible.

Fortunately, when it comes to ladder filters, there's several very good options today.. Monark and Legend being the obvious ones. Legend, in particular, does a lot to put these issues to bed.. Too buzzy? Not enough? Dial calibration to taste..

[PAK]

Which synth was used tho? Nobody seems to agree what it was....

That's because there's several versions.. Regardless, assuming a good quality recording of the one from their Disco album, it can be copied well by a Minimoog. Likewise, both Monark and Legend will do a good job..

Diva's struggle is related to the way the ladder resonance peaks. Hard to get the "twang" of the resonance right before it goes into squelch. You can compensate for the bass drop somewhat by turning up the VCA setting btw.. but still something off in that mid-upper area with resonance IMO, where Legend "solves" those issues for my ears. YMMV..

[Urs]

Don't rely on my words.. go and try it.

You mean, like this?

Well, I was meaning more creating specific sounds than looking at graphs.. But visual information is one method.. Sure!

The problem is.. it's visual information.. about audio..

So the information it communicates is rather limited.. If it wasn't then your job would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?

Best to stick with ears, where possible.

Fortunately, when it comes to ladder filters, there's several very good options today.. Monark and Legend being the obvious ones. Legend, in particular, does a lot to put these issues to bed.. Too buzzy? Not enough? Dial calibration to taste..

No, it just shows that by objective means, it's rubbish to dismiss Diva's ladder filter implementation as "attenuating bass" more than, say, Monark. Your ears may tell you otherwise, but then that's you subjective experience, not a fact.

[Urs]

Thing is, if everyone would "go and try it" *before* they post their facts, my life would be a lot easier. I'd get a lot more done.

[PAK]

No, it just shows that by objective means, it's rubbish to dismiss Diva's ladder filter implementation as "attenuating bass" more than, say, Monark. Your ears may tell you otherwise, but then that's you subjective experience, not a fact.

Ok, I understand what you're saying now, and can agree ..especially when I reminded myself of the VCA setting

Thing is, if everyone would "go and try it" *before* they post their facts, my life would be a lot easier. I'd get a lot more done.

Well, I did (though a while ago.. ) And (after a recheck) I'd still say there is an area of difficulty IE Bass sounds where you want to introduce some resonance to add air / buzz / gnarl / choice subjective term, but not go into all out squelch.

Much of this "over-cooked" impression, btw, is likely created due to a compressed useful knob range, where things to go to squelch or inaudible differences (except maybe dropping volume), meaning more micro-tweaks of resonance in that 2-4 sort of range, along with the envelopes, is required.

It would be very nice to see the sort of calibration control, Legend offers, in more synths. Diva in particular, because of the need to cross-share settings between models, would benefit

Wups.. edir.. Legend.. not legacy

[Urs]

It would be very nice to see the sort of calibration control, Legacy offers, in more synths. Diva in particular, because of the need to cross-share settings between models, would benefit

Yeah, once I get to revisit some of Diva's algorithms with our 5 years of extra knowledge since she came out, we'll have more variation and calibration. We had one Moog ladder to compare to then, we have ten now.

[PAK]

Yeah, once I get to revisit some of Diva's algorithms with our 5 years of extra knowledge since she came out, we'll have more variation and calibration. We had one Moog ladder to compare to then, we have ten now.

That would be great. Though a print out, of your to-do list, likely reaches the moon by now?

Which reminds me.. is there a plan to move the Diva filter types (and even RePro, for that matter) into Zebra 3 (or a HZ edition of Zebra 3) or will they always stay a Zebra 2 HZ exclusive? Just that with some extra vintage oriented drive/VCA options, it could make things very interesting for those inclined towards Diva-style sonics, but who are also looking towards modular freedom..