Sad state of Native Instruments

[Danilo Villanova]

I’ve been angry for months because NI doesn’t allow their **synths** to be used to make sample packs (loops). They’re basically arguing that a musical idea that I created with a sound that I made from init patch is theirs. How can these a**holes get away with such restrictive eulas?

They can go f*ck themselves. I paid for them to use them and if they want to claim that MY musical performance with MY sound design is THEIR intellectual property they can f*cking sue me.

Rant over.

Is this something that you found in their license agreement?

If it's a synth with no samples, I wouldn't even ask, nor would I care what their license agreement says. Of course, if you advertise it as a <NI Product> sample pack, then you may attract their attention.

If it contains samples, sorry, you need a license unless you have the resources to battle NI in court or the stones to ignore copyright law. This rules out Battery and virtually all Kontakt instruments.

I doubt that they will sue over it anyway. There has been pushback in the courts over the bright line rule for sampling and I think that an edge case like this will have a good chance of introducing a de-minimis standard for sampling. They may send you a threatening letter though.

I mean Massive, FM8, Reaktor (synths), etc. Not Kontakt or Battery instruments. Their EULA is kind of ambiguous, so I emailed them, and they confirmed that they don't allow ANY of their instruments to be used for making loops/samples. Other people have done the same and gotten the same response.

To be clear, I'm only interested in making original (short) compositions, using sounds that I made from INIT patch. I wouldn't even use the noise oscillators from Massive X. I do respect their right to protect their intellectual property.

Your "colourful" rant aside: What exactly do you want to do? First, you talk about creating loops and samples, then you talk about "compositions". What exactly is it you want to do with the synths?

Also, I fail to see how doing loops and samples actually differs from composing. After all, you bounce it all down in the end. And, don't tell me you can't use your sampled instruments in a track.

You answered yourself in the second paragraph. A loop is a composition.

[chk071]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

[Danilo Villanova]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion. I say it’s illegal to forbid such a thing, because the implication is that if I make a composition (loop) with a patch that I designed then it’s not my intelectual property. I say it is and I can do what I want with it.

Companies can say what they want. In my country shopping malls and supermarkets put signs in their parking lots claiming that they’re not liable for thefts that occurr in their premises, but they actually are and get sued all the time.

[chk071]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion.

I can't tell. It was YOU who read their EULA, wrote to them, and interpretated the EULA and their response the way you are stating here.

I can't imagine it, because, then any of your commercial compositions would be illegal. Which would be "Come on" territory, as there are gazillions of hit records made with Massive, for example. Common sense.

I think you (once again, like many others here) interpretated things the wrong way, and make a big deal out of it here now. Your hate speech above also hints to a certain emotional involvement, to say the least.

[PeterBPL]

These companies always answer you that they have more rights than they actually have. Just in case. If you're asking - you're automatically suspected and to be safe they answer you the way you cannot quote them against their company.

I once remember a radio program in which the host called various institutions with strange imaginary problems. He once called the power company to ask them whether the electric meter he had in his shed was his property or whether it belonged to the power company. They firmly told him that the meter was the property of the company. The guy checked twice, because the meter was in HIS shed on HIS property. "It doesn't matter" they answered, the electric meter does not belong to him. So the guy finally decided that it was actually a good thing, because yesterday someone broke into his shed and stole a few things - and he just call because he wanted to inform the energy company that THEIR meter had been stolen. Of course, they immediately replied that the thieves had stolen the meter from him, to which the guy replied "They stole it from me? It's not my electric meter! It's yours!"

So maybe next time if you create something and NI says that it's their property - ask them to help you to recover it, because you accidentally deleted it.

[wakax]

if you ask me, all I see from NI lately is 0 innovation.
just sample based "instruments" and sample packs...
content for the age of content.

this is what happends when "equity firm" sharks put their hands on smth
and milk the cow until it dies...

sad story.

[Danilo Villanova]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion.

I can't tell. It was YOU who read their EULA, wrote to them, and interpretated the EULA and their response the way you are stating here.

I can't imagine it, because, then any of your commercial compositions would be illegal. Which would be "Come on" territory, as there are gazillions of hit records made with Massive, for example. Common sense.

I think you (once again, like many others here) interpretated things the wrong way, and make a big deal out of it here now. Your hate speech above also hints to a certain emotional involvement, to say the least.

Yes, I'm not an emotionless lizard, believe it or not. I'll try to act in a more reptilian way in the future, as to not offend your sensitivities...

Here's what they say: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... ounds%20is

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

I emailed them (went back and forth several times) asking them to confirm if this applied to their synths. Here's part of the exchange:

Me: "I guess my question is: does sampling Massive X and creating loop libraries fall into the same category of sampling a Kontakt instrument? I understand I can't sample a Kontakt library, but does this apply to your synths like Massive X? "

Their response: "Yes, please don't create a new sample library out of NI products and sell it. Of course, you can use NI presets and sounds in your music."

So, where is my wrong interpretation? Please enlighten us, o wise one!

[chk071]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion.

I can't tell. It was YOU who read their EULA, wrote to them, and interpretated the EULA and their response the way you are stating here.

I can't imagine it, because, then any of your commercial compositions would be illegal. Which would be "Come on" territory, as there are gazillions of hit records made with Massive, for example. Common sense.

I think you (once again, like many others here) interpretated things the wrong way, and make a big deal out of it here now. Your hate speech above also hints to a certain emotional involvement, to say the least.

Yes, I'm not an emotionless lizard, believe it or not. I'll try to act in a more reptilian way in the future, as to not offend your sensitivities...

Here's what they say: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... ounds%20is

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

Well, that couldn't be more clear, could it? You are allowed, without any restrictions, to do commercial music with their products. You aren't allowed to use THEIR sounds in solitary, and sell them as your own on sample or loop products.

And that is a reason for you to scream "f**k EVERYONE"? I don't get it.

[chk071]

By the way, just for your info: Support workers aren't lawyers either, so, even they could misunderstand the EULA, and simply respond with a general "Please don't use our products for sample production". I frankly don't see anything in the passage you quote that would generally forbid that though. For me, that definitely sounds like they are talking about the factory presets.

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products"

A patch you make from an init patch isn't Native Instruments' sound. It's yours. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to do anything in commercial music with it.

That said, you can also use the factory presets in commercial music, of course.

[DrGonzo]

Support workers aren't lawyers either, so, even they could misunderstand the EULA

This is probably the cause of this kerfuffle.

[Danilo Villanova]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion.

I can't tell. It was YOU who read their EULA, wrote to them, and interpretated the EULA and their response the way you are stating here.

I can't imagine it, because, then any of your commercial compositions would be illegal. Which would be "Come on" territory, as there are gazillions of hit records made with Massive, for example. Common sense.

I think you (once again, like many others here) interpretated things the wrong way, and make a big deal out of it here now. Your hate speech above also hints to a certain emotional involvement, to say the least.

Yes, I'm not an emotionless lizard, believe it or not. I'll try to act in a more reptilian way in the future, as to not offend your sensitivities...

Here's what they say: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... ounds%20is

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

Well, that couldn't be more clear, could it? You are allowed, without any restrictions, to do commercial music with their products. You aren't allowed to use THEIR sounds in solitary, and sell them as your own on sample or loop products.

And that is a reason for you to scream "f**k EVERYONE"? I don't get it.

Please show me where I screamed "f**k EVERYONE". Show me where I directed any anger towards anyone except them. I am not your therapist. I am not responsible for your emotions. Grow up and handle your own emotional problems like a man instead of falsely accusing people on the internet of mistreating you.

As for their response. Can you read? Can you read my question? Can you see that I asked specifically about loops? Can you see that they confirmed that in fact they DO NOT allow loops? Also, can't you read that they themselves in their website say that you can't make loops?

Sorry, but what are you doing? Are you trolling? Honest question.

[ghettosynth]

And, the NI instruments' EULA forbids that in your opinion?

It’s THEIR opinion.

I can't tell. It was YOU who read their EULA, wrote to them, and interpretated the EULA and their response the way you are stating here.

I can't imagine it, because, then any of your commercial compositions would be illegal. Which would be "Come on" territory, as there are gazillions of hit records made with Massive, for example. Common sense.

I think you (once again, like many others here) interpretated things the wrong way, and make a big deal out of it here now. Your hate speech above also hints to a certain emotional involvement, to say the least.

Yes, I'm not an emotionless lizard, believe it or not. I'll try to act in a more reptilian way in the future, as to not offend your sensitivities...

Here's what they say: https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... ounds%20is

"It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances."

I emailed them (went back and forth several times) asking them to confirm if this applied to their synths. Here's part of the exchange:

Me: "I guess my question is: does sampling Massive X and creating loop libraries fall into the same category of sampling a Kontakt instrument? I understand I can't sample a Kontakt library, but does this apply to your synths like Massive X? "

Their response: "Yes, please don't create a new sample library out of NI products and sell it. Of course, you can use NI presets and sounds in your music."

So, where is my wrong interpretation? Please enlighten us, o wise one!

What they say doesn't matter. The EULA might, but it has limitations as well. As far as copyright is concerned, they're simply wrong. So, if you choose to record and resell sounds, then you may face legal action from them based on their interpretation of that EULA, but that doesn't mean that's the end of it. What they say beyond that isn't a part of the EULA, it's just their opinion on their interpretation.

I doubt very seriously that they've ever taken anyone to court over recording Reaktor sounds and selling them in loop libraries. It's done ALL the time and there are no copyright restrictions on doing so.

It is only strictly prohibited to use single, combined or modified sounds from Native Instruments to create sample CDs, loop libraries, sound libraries or similar products, as the license granted is strictly limited to one person only - any trading, lending, renting, reissuing, re-distribution or re-sale of sounds is not permitted under any circumstances.

This to me is clearly with respect to their own presets. Even there though, they are on shaky legal ground. Companies are delusional with respect to what copyright protects. They know that it's not enforceable, but they will try anyway.

To steer clear of copyright violations, which are more clear cut, just don't include their samples in anything that you produce.

[ghettosynth]

Support workers aren't lawyers either, so, even they could misunderstand the EULA

This is probably the cause of this kerfuffle.

Absolutely. Some support worker thinks that they're doing god's work. Just ignore them, that's not an authoritative source. Ask your own lawyer what to do. If you don't have one or can't afford one, then you aren't even going to be on NI's radar and all of this is just a metric assload of wasted synapse firings.

[donkey tugger]

Support workers aren't lawyers either, so, even they could misunderstand the EULA

This is probably the cause of this kerfuffle.

Absolutely. Some support worker thinks that they're doing god's work. Just ignore them, that's not an autoreactive source. Ask your own lawyer what to do. If you don't have one or can't afford one, then you aren't even going to be on NI's radar and all of this is just a metric assload of wasted synapse firings.

Or as we say in the exciting, heady world of of vehicle operator licensing;

'..this information is only a personal opinion and does not constitute the view of the department. A definitive test can only be made in a court of law, and as such you may wish seek your own, independent, legal advice before proceeding...'

[chk071]

Support workers aren't lawyers either, so, even they could misunderstand the EULA

This is probably the cause of this kerfuffle.

Absolutely. Some support worker thinks that they're doing god's work. Just ignore them, that's not an autoreactive source. Ask your own lawyer what to do. If you don't have one or can't afford one, then you aren't even going to be on NI's radar and all of this is just a metric assload of wasted synapse firings.

Again, I would consult common sense. Gazillions of records were made with NI plugins, and, gazllion of sample packs (and presets) have been created using their synths.

If this was an issue, then you surely would have heard about law suits on a large scale.

And, last but not least, I have to ask what all the fuss is about this anyway. Are you planning to release commercial sample or loop packs which were created with NI plugins?

I guess it's more about the "f**k you" than anything else. Just like 90% of this thread really.