Kjaerhus Synth coming up

[jplanet]

Another thing Spectra kept doing was Indian style string drones. And, of course, trippy pads.

Yes, This is where I see some great potential with Spectra! Beautiful resonant drones that sound crisp and clear.

Yes! be sure to check out my presets, Sitar Drone and Sitar In Space....let me know what you think!

[AdmiralQuality]

You kids crack me up. I spent about $400 on my first synthesizer, a second hand ARP Axxe monosynth, back in 1977. In the early '80's I bought a low-end Roland synth (the JX-3P) for about $1,300. That's about the same as spending $2,466 in 2004 dollars. And nowadays people are inhibited about spending $140 for a synth that will do, well, let's just say a LOT more than a Roland JX-3P!

I'll keep my JX-3P thank you very much! Can't compare the sounds at all, these two synths just aren't the same thing. ("Steamed up analog junkie" here!)

Yup, it was $1300 in 1983. Was my first polysynth and the most inexpensive 2 oscillator per voice polysynth you could buy at the time. (My first monosynth was a Realistic Moog Concertmate MG-1 that I bought used a couple years before for $300.) Was also the first synth with MIDI, followed shortly by the Yamaha DX-7 (which cost more like $2600... my rich friend had one).

Someone broke my original JX-3P in the mid 90's but I recently replaced it with a used one I found for $250! So even the hardware is priced like software these days. (Sometimes anyway... a Moog MG-1 now goes for more than this used JX-3P cost me. Probably more than they originally sold for. Who'd have thought a toy from Radio Shack would become such a good investment?)

On the other hand, all these classic items were made of matter, had keyboards and knobs attached, where with software we have to provide all that gear ourselves (though you can re-use it for many different products). But you can't really compare the prices of new sofware with classic hardware. The old stuff was heavy, built in factories, had to be shipped from Japan... with software, once you're finished the design phase you're DONE, there is no manufacturing phase. So all the customer has to pay for is the original one-time R&D effort, and ongoing maintainance of an internet shopfront. What is the price of a cup of electrons these days?

But back to the point, there's just no comparing an analog synth (real or virtual) with what we have here. Apples and oranges, not fair to either.

[funkychickendance]

You kids crack me up.

Let's see...I had a driver's licence when I saw the Beatles live, before She Loves You was released... and I'm waiting patiently for my Social Security check to kick in (not long now) ...it's nice to be thought of as a 'kid,' though.

There are advantages, I suppose...like a whole bunch of bought-at-the-time-but-now-vintage Martins, a Les Paul, etc.

The basic hypothesis that Spectra would be my most expensive VST synth is still correct as stated, if I discount getting Symptohm at the crazy Xmas price...but it wouldn't be changed by whatever age group I fell in

/fcd
"age is not important unless you're a cheese"

edit/addendum: my most expensive synth evah was a Korg DS-8, which still works beautifully. I get more envy for still owning the manual than I do for having the gizmo itself, which I mostly use as a controller.

[AdmiralQuality]

-Another thing I noticed but didn't really spend enough time with it to know if it was because I was missing something or if it's a bug. I created a sound with no harmonics at all, and an open low pass filter with no resonance, and when I played I heard a weird buzzing where I'd expect to hear nothing at all. I did this experiment exactly because I was hearing this weird buzz in all the sounds, particularly in the low end. But I couldn't make it go away, or make a sound that was "empty".

Scratch that, I found what I was doing wrong (was missing the pages with the upper harmonics). It does indeed make silence.

Suggestion: make the harmonics display have a horizontal scrollbar rather than all that page flipping.

[Kraku]

I just did a pad sound test with Spectra. First I took a pure saw wave from Polysix (KLC) and then analyzed it with Spectra. Then I took three of these oscillators, detuned them abit and added some of the Spectra's filter and effects. Only spectra is creating this voice, no additional processing. Here's the result:

http://www.krakulandia.info/KVR/Spectra_Test_02.mp3

It's easy to create pads Next one on the list: leads (I already was going to test those, but I had to create more pads...)

[emdot_ambient]

I'll keep my JX-3P thank you very much!

Me too

Was also the first synth with MIDI

That only sends/receives note on/off and program change messages, and only on MIDI Chnl 1. Oh, and the onboard sequencer does not respond to MIDI start, stop or time. I.e., it's not syncable without external devices (like a TR-707 slaved to MIDI and sending time pulses).

On the other hand, all these classic items were made of matter, had keyboards and knobs attached...blah, blah, blah

Then just compare VSTi's to hardware today and you'll still see there's a big difference. Understandably so since there's manufacturing and material costs involved. But that wasn't my point. Nor was it a comparison of products. I was only pointing out how perceived value has drastically changed over the years. Simple economics of supply and demand has driven the perceived value of soft synths into the dirt compared with what they can actually do.

[emdot_ambient]

You kids crack me up.

Let's see...I had a driver's licence when I saw the Beatles live, before She Loves You was released... and I'm waiting patiently for my Social Security check to kick in...

I was wondering if that comment was coming. Let's just say I used the word "kids" metaphorically!

[emdot_ambient]

I just did a pad sound test with Spectra. First I took a pure saw wave from Polysix (KLC) and then analyzed it with Spectra. Then I took three of these oscillators, detuned them abit and added some of the Spectra's filter and effects. Only spectra is creating this voice, no additional processing.

Sweet! Very convincing, too. I don't think I've heard any additive synths that do VA as well as Spectra. I could be wrong, but in my limited experience that's a true statement.

[deleted]

DELETED

[pethu]

Wasnt impressed with the presets in this, but will have a mess around to see what it can really do later.

A lot of the presets are still missing from the plugin... Don't let it put you off, also the full version has a fair few more than the demo...

Currently 600+, in fact

[deleted]

DELETED

[AdmiralQuality]

Was also the first synth with MIDI

That only sends/receives note on/off and program change messages, and only on MIDI Chnl 1. Oh, and the onboard sequencer does not respond to MIDI start, stop or time. I.e., it's not syncable without external devices (like a TR-707 slaved to MIDI and sending time pulses).

Well velocity sensitive synths were still rare then -- oops, I'm forgetting the DX-7 that came out a week later (which has it's own flaws in the MIDI implementation) but it cost $1000 more. And yes the JX-3P only sends on MIDI Channel 1 but we'd just adjust everything ELSE to adapt to that. (It can be set to receive on any channel by pressing that button during startup... I was thinking of it more as a tone generator than a particularly useful controller.) As for the sequencer, well, these days it's not much use, but back in the day I had no problem syncing it to most everything I already had (MC-202, TR-606, um... there were more...) And there WAS no other MIDI gear to compare it to anyway. It's not the JX-3P's fault it was first on the scene.

Obviously a non-velocity sensitive instrument isn't going to send velocity from it's keyboard, but it still makes a fine organ controller.

MIDI sequencers as we understand them now didn't really start to appear until a year or two later. For the first year of MIDI we just got off on layering different brands of synth together, and that we could do it without a giant expensive bus cable like certain manufacturers were developing independently before the MIDI standard hit. Believe it or not "kids", that alone seemed a wonderful breakthrough at the time.

I do agree about the rest though, and that you can do a LOT these days with very little money compared to even just 10 years ago. But I also think that's how it should be, and what we should expect and demand of our technology. To me, pricing should reflect the investment of time and resources put into the development of the product. Do you think $250 from the sale price of every synth went to the person who programmed the firmware in the ROM? In fact, I bet s/he only got paid ONCE for it, regardless of how many units were sold, then it's on to the next assignment (SFX: whip cracks). But when all you're building is software, pure information, no manufacturing, almost no distribution cost, what's it worth? Sure, there's R&D time and you have to have enough computer/software/roof-over-your-head to do it on -- but you didn't have to build a factory. You didn't have to pay sales people to work deals with every music store in the world. Your advertising costs become negligible. And you get paid essentially 100% royalty on every single purchase, for the entire product lifetime. So how much is the product REALLY worth?

Heh, if anyone knows the answer to that, please tell me cuz I'm planning to start charging for some products soon myself, and I keep asking myself these same questions, over and over.

Developers do have to eat, software must be worth something, absolutely! But I'm frequently surprised by just how much some companies charge for their stuff. Let's say I can buy a used Prophet-5 for $2000 (there's one on eBay right now!) -- then that's actually what a P5 is worth today, NOT the inflated original purchase price. So you can buy Pro-53 for, what, $250? $200? So lets say it's 1/10th the monetary value of the real deal. Do you really think it only cost 10 times more to design and manufacture Prophet-5's than it did to design and kick out boxed copies of Pro-53? This is what I'm getting at... the margins are way higher these days, and the unit sales are higher too. Somebody's getting rich! Get em!!!

(Torben's pricing seems at the upper end of reasonable though, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about his products in particular. Just the industry trend in general.)

[emdot_ambient]

...[the JX-3P] can be set to receive on any channel by pressing that button during startup...

Hmm. I don't remember that. Nice to know, though.

...As for the sequencer, well, these days it's not much use...

I have always wished it did respond to MIDI. I know it's a bit of a bizarre interface but I really liked it. If you think about it, it was capable of things that most sequencers don't easily do today. WHAT? Well, it's really true. You didn't set the number of steps or the BPM or anything, you just had to confine yourself to a maximum of 128 steps (and up to 6 notes per step).

So let's say I did a sequence of 17 steps. Then if you put it under control of a drum machine, playing one step everytime a trigger is programmed, and you set up 4 different patterns strung together in a "song", maybe two of these drum patterns would trigger 6 steps over 4 bars (in a differnent pattern), the next 2 would do different patterns of 8 steps . . . you'd get a rhythmically correct pattern that would only exactly repeat every 68 measures (17 repeats of the 4, 4-bar patterns).

To me, pricing should reflect the investment of time and resources put into the development of the product.

It should reflect that, but it should also reflect the time it takes to program and bring to market for soft synths. That's from the developer's point of view. From the musician's point of view, I think price should be commencerate with functionality. If I'm strictly a studio musician, soft synths are way eaisier to utilize. Even Klaus Schulze, one of the true pioneers of synth music, agrees with that. Assuming I don't need new controllers or gear for live performance, then to me what I'm willing to pay is more a function of the quality of sounds I get. Period.

So how much is the product REALLY worth? Heh, if anyone knows the answer to that, please tell me cuz I'm planning to start charging for some products soon myself, and I keep asking myself these same questions, over and over.

There is only one answer to that . . . it's worth what people are willing to pay.

Let's say I can buy a used Prophet-5 for $2000 . . . So you can buy Pro-53 for, what, $250? $200?

And when you get that used Prophet-5 and half the keys don't work, the switches are dead and the oscillator chips aren't manufactured any more, then you tell me how much your $2,000 purchase is going to cost to get/keep in working order.

And anyone buying Pro-53 at full retail's a fool. Shell out the extra bucks for Komplete and get 11 packages for about $82 per software. If I managed to afford $1,300 (remember, that's about the same as $2660 today) when I was about 25 and working a shite retail job, then, yeah I'm shocked to hear people gripe about paying the prices soft synths cost today considering their power. It's not about comparing one product to another, but price for performance.

Put it to you like thia . . . when I was just starting out I could afford one monosynth and a shite practice amp. Six years later I could afford to add a 6-voice, 2 Osc keyboard, a mimimally effective drum machine, a phaser and delay stomp box and a really crappy mixer. Four years later I could afford a cheap sampler and going in half on an multi FX box. Somewhere in there I spent $200 on a string synth and $250 on a used Minimoog (I know, it was a steal!). So it took me 10 years to put together anything like a functional keyboard rack, and pretty much all the gear was either used or low-end of the market. So, in today's market about $7,348. For about $300 less than that last year I bought a good AMD-64 DAW with Cubase SX3 and a decent audio card, Komplete, Albino, GPO, Oddity, M-Tron, Lounge Lizard 2, Moog Modular V, 5 misc sample collections, Waves Renn bundle, a couple misc FX from other developers . . . plus downloaded a billion and a half free synths and FX.

So, yeah, I think it's rather funny to hear that a $200 synth is too expensive. Hell, it's cheaper than a year of cell phone expenses or cable TV (neither of which I have).

PS I love Spectra

[mayan]

Just started playing under the hood of Spectra. Whoa! I'm by no means a programmer but I know what I like. While many of the patches are a bit meat and potatos for me, they are very nice leaping off places into the unknown. I was exploring the wormholes and stratospheres of distant planets almost immediately. And the sounds were very workable. Very interesting synth.

I'm definately getting the CPU spike on preset change. I have an AMD 64+. Oh well. A couple of questions: a) any microtuning capability...looked through the manual and didn't see it? And 2) more metaphysically, how would you describe the difference in sound/texture etc. between additive and subtractive? For instance, if you had a blind-fold on would you be able to tell (or at least suspect) an additive sound? What would be the indicia?

[Torben]

Do you really think it only cost 10 times more to design and manufacture Prophet-5's than it did to design and kick out boxed copies of Pro-53? This is what I'm getting at... the margins are way higher these days, and the unit sales are higher too. Somebody's getting rich! Get em!!!

(Torben's pricing seems at the upper end of reasonable though, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about his products in particular. Just the industry trend in general.)

You are totally wrong if you think software developers are getting rich. Software plugins are not sold in a fraction of the numbers of hardware units sold. There is this big problem known as crack users undermining the whole industry, and that's why you see the big companies keeping away from software or use dedicated hardware cards. TC had an adventure with software plugins but decided to get out because it was a bad business. I don't want to discuss price policy on an open forum but it makes be angry to see how you are feeding people with that kind of misinformation.

Please note that Kjaerhus is developing software. There are many software programmers out there just putting together some code find on the web. Development of proprietary algorithms like our moog filter models takes time; I just saw a filter alone sold for the same price as Spectra. If we were selling this cheaper we would live in a carton box and go hungry to bed. When I compare price of Spectra and sound quality I do not think we are in any high price end.

A couple of questions: a) any microtuning capability...looked through the manual and didn't see it? And 2) more metaphysically, how would you describe the difference in sound/texture etc. between additive and subtractive? For instance, if you had a blind-fold on would you be able to tell (or at least suspect) an additive sound? What would be the indicia?

a) No.

2) Yes. I tried to answer this question but it is hard to (I would need to draw a picture). But there are differences in the sound and when you learn to recognice them you will know the difference. Bad answer I know

Torben