Rant on music theory ignorance.

[Klemperer]

Thanks Klemperer. I will admit that I went a little Sithy with that line. I never mean to force my view on anybody. Sometimes I just wonder what would happen if anti-theorist just cracked a simple book, had a look and threw it out. Somebody that can think clearly enough to put a song together without any formal knowledge must have enough intellegence to ignore or expand on even the tiniest bit of knowledge. Nobody has to do anything, but some people are just trying to point out new possibilities in the hope of helping others better thier craft. If people think they have mastered all they need then fair enough, but you dont know till you atleast have a quick look. In my humble opinion.

That sounds pretty reasonable, why can't more KVR posts be like that one?


McLilith

Indeed. I think anti-theorists in a "100%-way" don't exist. But I guess you knew what I mean. My view comes in parts from writing, and from a long period now where writers accused the ones before them (=before 1989, roughly) of knowing nothing, following no knowledge, being all too naive, and so on. That indeed was not true, people before (postmodern) writing or some other styles simply followed other material they had read and tried and tried again. But they were accused of knowing nothing at all.
Let aside this, I tend to agree on everything you and Hovmod and others wrote.

Concerning 100 posts, I hope you will get something. So I want something as I reach 777 (2 months ago and before my drink while you may experiment I was at some 300 )

[androidlove]

i took ALL the music courses throughout grade school, middle school, and high school. i took a year of theory in college. i've skimmed books on theory. i played jazz guitar in the college jazz band. i use very little of what i learned. i like 7th's. i use the pentatonic blues scale as a starting point for my noodling

[Sascha Franck]

FWIW, when saying very few jazz educated players would succeed in a rock lineup, I meant that "jazz education only" player usually would fail. The same is true for classicaly trained musicians. And of course, the same is true for a rock musician attemting a jazz band without any further practise.

All I wanted to say is that the "if you know jazz/classic you can play everything" point is totally moot as it just doesn't fit any of my experiences.

[TVD]

this thread has inspired me to make some more f**king noise

Well at less you're honest!

[TVD]

BTW, a question to all of you:

Does making fresh beats (in hip-hop/rap) counts as being "a real musician" or "being a beat marker"?

Dr. Dre & Timberland would say "musician" or "composer of the beats". Are they're right or wrong?

[fabi]

blah blah. i am good at drawing, painting and writing. music isn't any different. the literature professors at uni probably know a little bit of something, but most of it is useless for your own creations if you are not able to integrate or apply it to your own creations. same goes for drawing and painting.

same goes for music.
music and music can be five very different drawings. for better as well as for worse and brilliant and bollocks. in all cases. easy as that.

[fabi]

meaning - i love it when i come stumble across tidbits of knowledge. i love reading comic books for the musical inspiration they provide. i love listening to music for the visual inspiration i derive from it.

theory is definitely interesting, but i'd be hesistant to judge theories in terms of 'good' or 'bad'. and not all musical theory has to be applied to music. some of it might be relevant to literature, some of it to painting. in fact writing poetry has very much influenced my compositions as well as my mixing. not that i have reached a point were i'd have pretentions about being able to 'compete', musically, but that is not my ambition as of now. at least not competition that goes beyond competing with my own previous efforts - be it drawing, writing, composing.

i absolutely respect conventional novels, songs, symphonies, naturalistic portraits and so on, but those are not things i am interested in creating right now.
as much as i respect gays, lesbians, bi's, but do not have an interest in participating in same-sex encounters as of now.

[deggy]

FWIW, when saying very few jazz educated players would succeed in a rock lineup, I meant that "jazz education only" player usually would fail. The same is true for classicaly trained musicians. And of course, the same is true for a rock musician attemting a jazz band without any further practise.

All I wanted to say is that the "if you know jazz/classic you can play everything" point is totally moot as it just doesn't fit any of my experiences.

depends on the type of jazz though woundn't it? and comon - how many people jazz players wouldn't have been exposed to rock training. all you really need to do is just listen to the stuff. it's prob easier to pound through some green day 182 after hearing it once than lift ornette solos

[soulata]

FWIW, when saying very few jazz educated players would succeed in a rock lineup, I meant that "jazz education only" player usually would fail. The same is true for classicaly trained musicians. And of course, the same is true for a rock musician attemting a jazz band without any further practise.

All I wanted to say is that the "if you know jazz/classic you can play everything" point is totally moot as it just doesn't fit any of my experiences.

depends on the type of jazz though woundn't it? and comon - how many people jazz players wouldn't have been exposed to rock training. all you really need to do is just listen to the stuff. it's prob easier to pound through some green day 182 after hearing it once than lift ornette solos

made my day (while lifting ornette violin and trumpet solos)

IMO, my generation was much more exposed to rock than to jazz or classical music. i got into jazz much later but still enjoy rock and play it as often as jazz.

It's not another world for me.

k

[Sascha Franck]

depends on the type of jazz though woundn't it?

Sure, somewhat. But I thought we were talking about standard jazz educated people here more or less.

and comon - how many people jazz players wouldn't have been exposed to rock training.

A lot it seems...

all you really need to do is just listen to the stuff.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. Just listening won't bring you anywhere.

it's prob easier to pound through some green day 182 after hearing it once than lift ornette solos

Again I somewhat disagree.
I've hardly seen a "jazz trained only" guitarist being capable of performing those fast and accurate downstrokes at all. Even quite some rock guitar players fail on that.
Of course, transcribing and playing Coleman/Parker/whatever solos IS a tough thing - but then seriously, which educated jazz player you know off is doing them really good? There's only a handful of them.
Besides, it's not about playing transcriptions, it's about coming up with stuff of your own. And I find many jazz players to fail pretty much on that matter.

[kab]

I did not read through this entire thread yet... I will say that shying away from at least attempting to learn theory is definitly hindering yourself.

If your music is on key, and has key changes, then you're already using theory... don't think of it so much as hard and fast rules, as much as definitions of what you do.

One of the first inclinations that I should learn proper theory, was coming up with melodies, and not knowing what to to accompany them.. and I still have a lot to learn.

[proletkult]

I've met many amazing musicians who sight read like a machine and understand music theory like it was 2nd nature, but many of them can't improvise. Choosing their own notes seems to frighten them. I also know musicians who can't read music but can improvise fantastically. The latter still understand the musical rules that are relavant to them, they just don't know the technical terms and why should they? I don't know as much theory as I should because I've always relied on a good ear. When I'm arranging things understanding chord relationships make things faster but if I don't know what I want in the first place, it won't make any difference. Today orchestral music has the same demands but a lot of contemporary music is written by people who could not be called musically literate and they hide the fact well by never trying to do what they can't. But what they do is still good. I guess I'm saying its about "horses for courses".

[netsound]

You can't learn creativity bacause it doesn't take place in the learning centers of the brain. Creativity and intuition is a strange mechanism. More like an anomaly or dark matter we don't understand it. You can't learn creativity.

Just cause you know the all the letters of the alphabet and the language doesn't make you a great writer.

Just cause you know the chemical composition of paint doesn't make you a picasso.


I'd listen to something original and inspiring any day over any scholary music. Yea I hate clasical its kind of anoying and skitzo type music. Too dicki twinki tow animal farm glory days, As for jazz, its ok but never got ito it. and I don't like rap anymore, never care for the stupid dave matheus type bands either

[Meffy]

Yea I hate clasical its kind of anoying and skitzo type music. Too dicki twinki tow animal farm glory days

Yes, and all rock is pretentious noise and all rap is violent and all...

*9_9*

[nuffink]

You can't learn creativity bacause it doesn't take place in the learning centers of the brain. Creativity and intuition is a strange mechanism. More like an anomaly or dark matter we don't understand it. You can't learn creativity.

Just cause you know the all the letters of the alphabet and the language doesn't make you a great writer.

Just cause you know the chemical composition of paint doesn't make you a picasso.


I'd listen to something original and inspiring any day over any scholary music. Yea I hate clasical its kind of anoying and skitzo type music. Too dicki twinki tow animal farm glory days, As for jazz, its ok but never got ito it. and I don't like rap anymore, never care for the stupid dave matheus type bands either

You're an idiot. Picasso was formally trained. Indeed his father was an art teacher.
In fact the only autodidact among the early modernists was "the douanier" Rousseau.
Still I'd hardly expect an idiot who uses Picasso in such an example to have heard of him.