KVR Audio

crimsonwarlock · Post by **crimsonwarlock** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:02 am

MTLE wrote:
Hanz Meyzer wrote:Hey,

what I would love to see is a one-liner included in the OSC voting tool to leave a private voting comment for the artist. For example there is a song I would vote 5, but I cannot since it sounds for me over compressed or maximized. If I wouldn't be the only one with this feeling, the artist could really benefit from such a information (that I don't like to post publicly) and check his/her mixing habits or monitor setup.
Oh, nice idea, for 5-3 points its optional to fill out, 2-1 it should be mandatory. I'm interested why some people rate low sometimes.

Keep in mind that there is no actual rating system, so what you cal a 'low rating' is in my view simply 'lower on the scale'. I tend to use a rating system that gives points for certain 'features' in the track, and that means that if some track only ticks one or two boxes in my rating system, it gets 2 or 3 points total. It doesn't mean the track is seriously bad (although it could mean that of course, if the track IS seriously bad).

We have a five point scale to rate tracks, I don't see why I should give some explanation why I rate any specific track anywhere on that scale. Maybe some of you like to have a two point rating, 'epic' and 'not so epic', but you'll agree that it would be too course to actually rate stuff properly. I would rather say we have a more granular scale. let's say 8 or 10 points, and yes that would mean someone could get 1 point on a scale of 10 instead of 1 point on a scale of 5.... I don't see a problem

Hanz Meyzer · Post by **Hanz Meyzer** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:33 am

crimsonwarlock wrote:I would rather say we have a more granular scale. let's say 8 or 10 points, and yes that would mean someone could get 1 point on a scale of 10 instead of 1 point on a scale of 5.... I don't see a problem

Hm didn't get the point here

Actually I would like to have a 4-scale instead 5 points. And 10 points will not have any more useful information or objectivity.

bjporter wrote:Like anonymous comment? I've been thinking about this kind of thing for some time. Strange that soundcloud doesn't have private comments or anonymous!? But it's obvious they steered away from community building back in 2011.

BTW, the fact you can't reply to comments outside soundcloud (aka having to go into the SC page) ruins a lot of the fun. Would be cool to integrate his

Yes, cool idea, good improvement, optional and preselected "post anonymously" checkbox. Sometimes not anonymous could be useful maybe.

This is exactly what I was asking myself regarding soundcloud. Why they do not have private comments and why you even can't correct writing mistakes

MTLE wrote:Oh, nice idea, for 5-3 points its optional to fill out, 2-1 it should be mandatory. I'm interested why some people rate low sometimes.

Good point. Maybe not mandatory, but preselected and a little warning, if not filled in while giving only 1 or 2. But I would also like mandatory, only some people will maybe only write rubbish then.

The comments and a little stats could be sent to the artists automatically using email when the voting is over. Like: "XYZ left a comment on his/her 1-point rating: comment" or "anonymous comment left on 1-point-rating: ..."

There could be of course much more improvements like voting for composition, mixing etc. but adding comments would not be so complicated and give lot of info benefit...

Gamma-UT · Post by **Gamma-UT** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:47 am

For low scores, is anyone going to get feedback that isn't just "I really didn't like it" or "it sucked"?

With possibly 40 or 50 pieces to score, people aren't going to spend much time on judging those that didn't even vaguely sound interesting to them. The reality of judging is that people spend the most time making decisions over which ones they score highly - working out why people docked points on those might be useful but they are often subjective decisions where the listener just doesn't care for the approach the producer took.

Hanz Meyzer · Post by **Hanz Meyzer** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:50 am

Of course there would be not useful comments, but also useful. If an artist votes another artist, I bet the comment would be useful. I believe OSC is about fun, but also about learning and improving. A voting has no information, that's the most superficial approach. If the comment is not mandatory, nobody is forced to write an one-liner.

psmacmur · Post by **psmacmur** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:14 pm

I personally like allowing voting to be subjective and intuitive. With mandatory comments on 1 & 2 only, one might be tempted to just give scores above the comment threshold, which would only serve to compress the dynamic range of voting.

Anonymous comments are a recipe for trolling. Even mandatory private commenting seems at risk of creating bitterness. In many cases where I vote a 1 or 2, I probably don't appreciate the style of music the producer was going for. What seems unpleasant or uninteresting to me might be an exemplary track in its genre, especially given the technical and musical sophistication of recent OSCs.

The harsh reality I think people need to accept is that many of us are voting "on the curve", i.e., relative to other tracks in the month's contest, and you're competing with world-class electronic musicians (myself excluded; I'm usually deservedly at the bottom).

crimsonwarlock · Post by **crimsonwarlock** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:45 am

Hanz Meyzer wrote:
crimsonwarlock wrote:I would rather say we have a more granular scale. let's say 8 or 10 points, and yes that would mean someone could get 1 point on a scale of 10 instead of 1 point on a scale of 5.... I don't see a problem
Hm didn't get the point here Actually I would like to have a 4-scale instead 5 points. And 10 points will not have any more useful information or objectivity.

What would 4-point scale give over a 5-point one? 10 points, or any number 'over' the current five points would give more granularity for those (like me) that give points for certain features instead of just a 'level of likeness' for the overall track. Currently, because the first one point is mandatory, I can only rate 4 'things' and only with an on/off scale (one point only per 'thing').

What I like to see, actually, is to have an actual rating system implemented where we can give, for example, 1-3 points for things like composition, sound arrangement, sound design, production, etc.

Sycopation · Post by **Sycopation** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Can someone kindly give me clarification on some of the rules? Sorry if some of this has already been asked a million times (I didn't have the time to read a 135 page thread!).

*The rules prohibit “modulation effects” and they specifically prohibit chorus, phaser and flanger. What about DAW-native tremolo, automated filters, comb filters etc. that are native to my DAW (Studio One)? What about doing automated filter sweeps (and the like) in my DAW?

*What about amp modeling or distortion? Is this disallowed because it “transform(s) the sounds to make them unrecognizable as being from the synth?” Or is allowed if it’s a DAW-native effect or a free plugin? Or is amp modeling / distortion allowed if it doesn’t make it “unrecognizable as being from the synth?” (that seems pretty subjective to me). These two rules kinda seem to contradict each other a bit.

*The rules specify that you can’t use samples, but you can use samplers as long as they are “host samplers or freeware and easily available.” I have access to a DAW-native sampler (Sample One) as well as free plugins like Mobius and Regen. Okay, fair enough. But there is also the rule that bouncing to audio is only allowed if “the EXACT same result could have been achieved using the original synth.” If you interpret that last part really strictly, then it raises the question: if it doesn’t modify the sound that you could get out of the synth directly at all, then what would be the point of using a sampler? Simply just to save CPU? If that’s the case, then why not just bounce a track to audio and arrange it as needed in the arrangement pane of your DAW? Or are there some DAWs that don’t allow you to easily arrange bounced audio, so use of a sampler for that purpose is allowed? Samplers / loopers are capable of doing beat slicing, sample chopping etc. So can you make use of that functionality, or not? Or is this a gray area? And if you can’t sample “a bass drum in order to get a consistent sound” then why can you sample anything? Sampling anything will inevitably lead to that thing sounding more consistent than it otherwise would. Honestly, I don’t understand the logic behind all this. Please help me understand.

I just wanna know what I can do and not get DQed!

Thanks

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:47 pm

Regarding low scores and commenting, since scores are public you could just go ahead and ask the people giving you low scores in a PM. I certainly wouldn't mind explaining my score if the producer is interested. Mandatory comments doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:00 pm

crimsonwarlock wrote:
Hanz Meyzer wrote:
crimsonwarlock wrote:I would rather say we have a more granular scale. let's say 8 or 10 points, and yes that would mean someone could get 1 point on a scale of 10 instead of 1 point on a scale of 5.... I don't see a problem
Hm didn't get the point here Actually I would like to have a 4-scale instead 5 points. And 10 points will not have any more useful information or objectivity.
What would 4-point scale give over a 5-point one? 10 points, or any number 'over' the current five points would give more granularity for those (like me) that give points for certain features instead of just a 'level of likeness' for the overall track. Currently, because the first one point is mandatory, I can only rate 4 'things' and only with an on/off scale (one point only per 'thing').

What I like to see, actually, is to have an actual rating system implemented where we can give, for example, 1-3 points for things like composition, sound arrangement, sound design, production, etc.

Why not just implement such system for yourself and then scale the scores to the 1-5 system? With enough people voting the extra granularity wouldn't really change anything.
I mean you could have a total of 30 things if you like and the let 1-6 be a 1 and so on... That way you could also add your own weight to each category you like to score.
Everybody users their own preferred way of choosing scores. A 1-5 system seems agnostic enough to suit most voting styles.
I would probably have a 0-1 system plus exactly one "favorite" as tie breaker. But perhaps the number of votes is a bit too small for that and would end up in ties anyway, especially for the runner ups.

ontrackp · Post by **ontrackp** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:36 am

crimsonwarlock wrote: What I like to see, actually, is to have an actual rating system implemented where we can give, for example, 1-3 points for things like composition, sound arrangement, sound design, production, etc.

I agree with this. I think it would be helpful both in scoring and understanding why we are scored high or low.

ontrackp · Post by **ontrackp** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:58 am

Has there ever been discussion of a time limit on the entries?

ThePresent · Post by **ThePresent** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:42 pm

ontrackp wrote:Has there ever been discussion of a time limit on the entries?

SoundGoddess · Post by **SoundGoddess** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:55 pm

@ontrackp - this month's album draft compiled into a single song didn't work for you?

idk, you really have to admire the effort if someone goes to such great lengths. i'm not sure that there needs to be a hard rule though, let the voting decide.

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:29 pm

Sycopation wrote:Can someone kindly give me clarification on some of the rules? Sorry if some of this has already been asked a million times (I didn't have the time to read a 135 page thread!).

...

I just wanna know what I can do and not get DQed!

Thanks

This search should get you going

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/search.ph ... sf=msgonly

And a similar discussion from OSC74:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/search.ph ... sf=msgonly

I think it's definitely up to some interpretation but general rule (except only free and available): Don't overdo it with effects.
Regarding sampling, I don't see it really allowed in the general meaning. I wouldn't say mixing down a track is the same as using a sampler in this regard, even if it may be used to the same effect.
My interpretation: It's ok to render or freeze your track but don't do any processing on the output. No slicing or rearranging. No typical sampler stuff. If you want those kinds of sounds, do it with automation.
All types of parameter modulation/automation is ok. Just no audio modulation effects.
Distortion seems to be ok but don't use it too heavily. For saturation and subtle coloring rather than full on fuzz.
Filters is a hard one, generally allowed but don't overdo it. Is an autofilter considered a modulation effect? Don't know

Tremolo and auto panners most certainly ARE modulation effects but I see them used occasionally. The effect of these are however trivial to make with automation and doesn't normally dramatically change the sound of the synth.

The spirit of the rules are that the chosen synthesizer should be the star of the show. If you really want to produce a certain effect and think it's not allowed, think outside the box. You can often do something close by automating parameters instead. Be creative, learn something new, get out of your comfort zone.
I agree the rules regarding effects seem a arbitrary but if you get the general spirit of them you'll be ok.

About being disqualified, if you follow the threads from earlier challenges you'll see that other users will point out if you happen to use a forbidden effect. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm new to this too so more experienced OSCers might have horror stories of people being disqualified after winning.

And unless you're in the top 5 being DQd is not a big deal anyway... It's not like you're banned for life.

mehum · Post by **mehum** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:49 pm

ontrackp wrote:
crimsonwarlock wrote: What I like to see, actually, is to have an actual rating system implemented where we can give, for example, 1-3 points for things like composition, sound arrangement, sound design, production, etc.
I agree with this. I think it would be helpful both in scoring and understanding why we are scored high or low.

I must respectfully disagree... First, I think it would be intimidating to the people not experienced in one or more of the categories rated. How would you rate "Production" without knowing what to listen for?
Second, even for people experienced enough to judge the weight of each category might clash with their own. Should sound design and production have the same weight to the final score?
Third, with a lot of entrants voting would take a lot longer. I wish I had the time to sit down and analyze every track. Last month was ok but this month I just couldn't and went more for gut reaction.
Every person has their own system. There's really no objective way of judging these things... 1-5 might not be perfect for everyone but at least it's agnostic so that you can put your own values in there.

If you're scored low (or high for that matter) and want to know the reasons, why not just ask the people judging in a PM? The votes are public.

One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread