Open303 - open source 303 emulation project - collaborators wanted

[rv0]

I guess that someone has to say it at this point, so it might as well be me...

oh no
not again.
the pointless discussion starts..

Emulating the note entry / sequencing of the original surely isn't that desirable in this day and age. It's pretty much the thing that keeps most of the emulations from becoming really usable instruments.

No emulator exists so far that does this.
So I don't know what you are talking about.

Please, pretty please with sugar on top, consider it carefully. There are more civilized ways to realize a step sequencer that achieves the same results without being a pain in the butt to use. Seriously.

the 303 sequencer isn't a pain in the butt, it's a gift from heaven.
It's the only natural step sequencer I know of that works with notes in a musical way.
All the "civilized" ways of sequencing can be embedded on top of it anyway.
Please look at my example 2 posts above this.
All emulators use a stupid way of entering notes.. 303 note entry is much shorter and offers a lot of advantages due to the separation of time and pitch mode.

It's what the sequencer in the original does functionwise what's necessary, not the user experience.

oh please..
functionality is nothing. It's the user experience that defines the instrument. Why are we using gui's these days? Righhhht..

(And the obviously necessary disclaimer: I'm talking as a person who's owned several 303s and is familiar with all the emulations)

well the assumptions you made so far clearly indicate you do not know the difference between the emulations and the real sequencer...



Seriously though.. If this is going to be one of those projects that gets it wrong (like EVERY other emulator).. I'm so out of here..
Maybe jmh can record the samples from now on then..



And sorry if this seems harsh, but I'm sick of having this discussion on forums and I'm dissapointed that I'll have to do it again...
If the original 303 sequencer were shit, I'd be x0xb0xing...

SERIOUSLY: if we are going to clone the original as close as possible, let us please not try to re-invent the sequencer.
First implement it, and then when that works 100%, extend it.

I really hate to show such an attitude, hope I offend nobody.

[brambos]

The beauty of this project is that it is an effort to get the 303 right - as good as possible. IMO this included the quirkyness and character of the original sequencer. Robin already promised to make the core source code available as open source, so anyone who wants a different implementation of the sequencer can make their own afterwards.

My $0.02

[jmh]

Sigh. Great attitude.

Some of us had their first 303s in 1991. There's been nearly 20 years of progress in music technology since.

Useless discussion indeed, when you get your knickers in a twist instantly. You seem to have a difficult time dealing with the reality that not everybody thinks like you do.

Try to be a bit more open minded. That's the basis of any sort of communication.

[mystran]

All hardware sequencers (whether 303 or not) suck, because every button adds to the cost of the unit, and even if you could afford to add a display, it was some silly small crap (and yes that goes for even those modern workstations with their fancy full-color VGA resolution shit).

For all the things that I don't like Reason, have you ever tried to program an acidline in the Matrix pattern sequencer? I'm not saying that's the best possible interface for this particular project, but it's one example of designing a modern (ok, it's like 10 years old now) sequencer that's actually fast to work with (as in program one complete pattern in approximately the same time it takes to get to the first step in a typical hardware wannabe crap).

[rv0]

Some of us had their first 303s in 1991. There's been nearly 20 years of progress in music technology since.

yeah?? can you give an example of that progress in relation to the 303?
every clone or emulator so far tried to re-invent the wheel and failed miserably.

Owning a 303 isn't enough. I know of a lot of well known artists with loads of releases that still haven't figured out how the 303 works..
They do random button presses, take the battery out, or use midi interface.
I've met people who own 303's for years and don't know how to program a 'rest'.

when you get your knickers in a twist instantly. You seem to have a difficult time dealing with the reality that not everybody thinks like you do.

sure. I'm having a hard time with this because nobody has ever given a good explanation as to "why" every clone or emulator does it wrong.
I have spent WAY to many times trying to explain it to people who don't understand.
Like in this topic: http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7441
(under the name darffader)
Yes.. it's frustrating when people don't want to understand. The guy I was discussing with there didn't even answer.. Imo he's very close minded.

Try to be a bit more open minded. That's the basis of any sort of communication.

sure..
but you know, when discussing, it would be great if you use arguments...
like.. facts..
I'm fully open minded you know, more than you think.

So please, I'm open to this discussion, if you come up with suggestions, facts and reasoning. So far you have just said I am wrong, without reasoning.

[Mike Janney]

Owning a 303 isn't enough. I know of a lot of well known artists with loads of releases that still haven't figured out how the 303 works..
They do random button presses, take the battery out, or use midi interface.
I've met people who own 303's for years and don't know how to program a 'rest'.

Well, it is an instrument, and any way the player (or user in this case?) choses to play it is alright as long as the results are good. If it means taking the battery out and randomizing patterns until you get what you want, then that's fine..!

[rv0]

@Mike Janney
sure thats fine.. and not really the point of what I said.
I was just saying that owning a 303 isn't really a guarantee of knowing how it works.

random and coincidence plays a heavy roll in my music, but so does the original sequencer while composing it all

and I know I'm not alone

[mistertoast]

Again, Robin has the source code open.

Nobody needs to get upset, because there are people who dig the step sequencer enough to add it to the code if it's not there and there are people who hate it enough to come up with any number of alternatives.

Job #1 is get the sound right. Eventually importing feeebee patterns is a great idea, so all our synths will be able to play common patterns.

Antto's plug, I believe, is going to be pretty true to the original step sequencer.

[rv0]

Antto's plug, I believe, is going to be pretty true to the original step sequencer.

no it wont be, we've talked about it over pm.
but i respect the sequencer on it, it offers nice possibilities.
otherwise I wouldn't be helping him out (that's how I got involved in this topic in the first place, because he was sharing my samples here..).



edit: it's easy to program abstraction layers on top of the original sequencer.
if the fundaments make the distinction between time and pitch mode, about any sequencer or function can be build on top of it easily.
But if it doesn't, it will take a whole lot of ugly code to implement time and pitch mode on top of it (i'm not saying it's impossible, it's just not that convenient)

[mistertoast]

OK. Fair enough. But the source will be open on Robin's. Maybe someday I'll buy a hardware 303 and see what you're talking about.

What software versions have an accurate step sequencer? Rebirth?

[rv0]

What software versions have an accurate step sequencer? Rebirth?

none at all..

there is no hard or software clone that does it right..


edit: same example as previous page:
rebirth, abl, freebee, x0xb0x, acidlab, hobnox, and all others:

Code: Select all

C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G s
C2 G -

tb-303:

Code: Select all

TM: G O O O O O O O
PM: c

it's not only a lot shorter, it's also easier to edit afterwards.
and all "special" features from the clones could be enabled on it too...

[mistertoast]

Well, just keep asking for it once a week. Your requests will eventually be seen as "consumer demand."

[mistertoast]

I'm still noodling about tools to analyse what we care about in these signals.

I imagine after the 303, we could do other things like the Who's EMS Synthi VCS3-filtered organ.

The idea wouldn't be to just get precisely that sound, but to understand what's going on enough to build a more general instrument that just happens to nail that Baba O'Riley "Teenage Wasteland" sound.

[Music Engineer]

while you're still in this stage:
please don't implement it like the other 303 clones.
implement it like a real 303, so you can enter patterns like in my example above.

at the time you posted this, i was actually already done with the sequencer. i'm afraid, you won't like it - but as others already said, as this is an open source project, everyone is free slap his own sequencer on it.

i - for one - now slapped a sequencer and GUI on it which is kinda typical for my plugins. for those who want to see, here is a (very early) build of it (it's also a debug-build, because the release-build seems to mess up certain things - so it's utterly slooow):

www.rs-met.com/temp/AciDevilGUI.zip

...have to go out now, but when i come back in the evening, i'll update the open-source version as well and post it here

sound is not really calibrated by now. i hope i can do this soon with the help of rv0.

[antto]

rv0: ok, the phrase "each step which has Gate takes a note (from the pitch list)"

so if i enter:
TM: G O O G - - G G (8 steps)
i would then hm..:
TM: c f c c#(U)

and get:

Code: Select all

c-2 > G S !!
c-2 > G S ..
c-2 > G S ..
f-2 > G -
- rest
- rest
c-2 > G S !!
c#3 > G S ..

do i got it?
tho, i'm not sure about when to put slide in PitchMode
grr..

i think you got a good point about this, i agree that most (if not all) software and hardware emulations have missed the original sequencer (with the original pattern programing)
that's true for even the x0xb0x, which is otherwise almost 1:1 (tho, the sequencer is like 40% of the 303 sound to begin with..)

if i am able to understand how exactly TimeMode and PitchMode work, i will try to implement it in my synth, will have to add some more buttons, but that's not too bad
i will keep the "easy" programing method too (so it'll be selectable, default would be 303-style)
but i'm not really sure if i can make this
as far as i know, when you program a 303, there are leds blinking, which is probably how the user knows what he's doing, unfortunately, making my leds blink is kind of hard