One Synth Challenge #150: TAL-NoiseMaker (Aiynzahev wins!)

[GeneralQ]

Here's a drum patch ... the zombie patch

I will reiterate: attempting to emulate waveform playback using sample playback and wavetable oscillators is definitely against the spirit of the rules. I would proffer that an extrapolation of this is: attempting to emulate waveform playback by any means including populating an LFO with points effectively from a sample (or a synthesized sample) is against the spirit of the rules. Sadly, Vital with its voice synthesis contradicts this and I would say should be allowed. Oh, the Ostensibly Sorely Confused rules.

I'd like to comment on this. In my opinion this should be rewarded. OSC is a Sound design challange. It's kinda weird how much limitations it has. And a lot of them don't even make sense. He really pushed the boundaries of what is possible with this synth and that should be rewarded with bonus points if anything. The rules need to be overhauled anyways.

[zerofox97]

Voted. I think everyone did rather well this month.

[briefcasemanx]

Here's a drum patch ... the zombie patch

I will reiterate: attempting to emulate waveform playback using sample playback and wavetable oscillators is definitely against the spirit of the rules. I would proffer that an extrapolation of this is: attempting to emulate waveform playback by any means including populating an LFO with points effectively from a sample (or a synthesized sample) is against the spirit of the rules. Sadly, Vital with its voice synthesis contradicts this and I would say should be allowed. Oh, the Ostensibly Sorely Confused rules.

I'd like to comment on this. In my opinion this should be rewarded. OSC is a Sound design challange. It's kinda weird how much limitations it has. And a lot of them don't even make sense. He really pushed the boundaries of what is possible with this synth and that should be rewarded with bonus points if anything. The rules need to be overhauled anyways.

If you want a challenge where sampling is allowed, you can always make your own challenge.

[phankiejankie303]

The rules need to be overhauled anyways.

Well the rules and the limitations are there in order to actually force people to focus their creative sound design on the synth itself rather than going creative with other means.

I mean if the rules change into all goes every month’s synth wouldn’t really matter. For instance using granural effects and frequency shifters you can go anywhere, the source (the synth) just wouldn’t matter anymore.

PS: Now imagine pushing the other way. No third or DAW effects allowed only the ones the synth has if it has any. We got to find a golden middle I guess so the process is fun and accessible to everyone.

[SeBaer]

PS: Now imagine pushing the other way. No third or DAW effects allowed only the ones the synth has if it has any. [...]

As I understand it, that was the way of the earliest intallments of KVR OSC. The forum threads are still online. I was reading some of them out of historic interest.

[liqih]

We got to find a golden middle I guess so the process is fun and accessible to everyone.

Yes, but we can't make everyone 100% happy. I'm accepting now the rules as they are, since I found myself alone when I noted that not limiting in the number of synth instances makes layering close to additive synthesis, with any given synth.

[gorgorgathgorgorgor]

oh man voting is hard this month! I mean it's hard every month, but there are soooo many great entries this month!

[] Peter:H []

It's the second bit of Code I wrote for this challenge. First bit was the lua notes filter posted elsewhere. I think sharing it is only fair so that you can get an impression for yourself, how I created spline points. Should be easy to explain what all this does. And may be a little challenge - find a thing in the code where I was conceptually completely wrong ... Have fun.

Code: Select all

public class FormulaToSplinePoints {
	
	private static final String SPLINE_POINT_TEMPLATE = "<splinePoint isStartPoint=\"0\" isEndPoint=\"0\" centerPointX=\"%1$f\"\r\n"
			+ "                     centerPointY=\"%2$f\" controlPointLeftX=\"%1$f\"\r\n"
			+ "                     controlPointLeftY=\"%2$f\" controlPointRightX=\"%1$f\"\r\n"
			+ "                     controlPointRightY=\"%2$f\"/>";
	private static double MIN = 0;
	private static double MAX = 1.0;

	public static void main(String[] args) {
		Locale.setDefault(Locale.US);
		//first
		System.out.println("<splinePoint isStartPoint=\"1\" isEndPoint=\"0\" centerPointX=\"0.0\" centerPointY=\"0.5\"\r\n"
				+ "                     controlPointLeftX=\"0.0\" controlPointLeftY=\"0.5\" controlPointRightX=\"0.1000000014901161\"\r\n"
				+ "                     controlPointRightY=\"0.5\"/>");
		emitStuff();
		
		//last
		System.out.println("<splinePoint isStartPoint=\"0\" isEndPoint=\"1\" centerPointX=\"1.0\" centerPointY=\"0.5\"\r\n"
				+ "                     controlPointLeftX=\"0.8999999761581421\" controlPointLeftY=\"0.5\"\r\n"
				+ "                     controlPointRightX=\"1.0\" controlPointRightY=\"0.5\"/>");
	}
	
	private static void emitStuff() {
		double steps=12000;
		double delta = (MAX-MIN) / steps;
		Random rand = new Random();
		
		double fctMin = -2;
		double fctMax = 1;
		double fctDelta = (fctMax - fctMin) / steps;
		
		double fctMinValue = Math.exp(fctMin); //use if fct is not 0 at the min point. move it up,so that minpoint will be 0.
		double fctMaxVal = Math.exp(fctMax); 
		double fctDeltaValue = fctMaxVal - fctMinValue; // use it to project into values 0-1 
		
		double maxFreq = 174.61;
		double deltaPhaseMaxFreq = 2*Math.PI*maxFreq/steps;
		double minFreq = 21.827;
		double deltaPhaseMinFreq = 2*Math.PI*minFreq/steps;
		double deltaFreq = (maxFreq-minFreq)/steps;
		double deltaDeltaPhase=(deltaPhaseMaxFreq - deltaPhaseMinFreq)/steps;
		
		//System.exit(-2);
		double phase=0;
		double deltaPhase = deltaPhaseMaxFreq;
		System.out.println("<!-- inverted exp start -->");
		for(int i=1; i< steps;i++) {
			//System.out.println(min+i*delta);
			double currentX = MIN+i*delta;
			double blendFactor = (Math.exp(fctMax-i*fctDelta) - fctMinValue) / fctDeltaValue;
			double currentY1=rand.nextDouble();
			double currentY2= 0.5+Math.sin(phase)*0.5;
			double currentY=currentY1*blendFactor + currentY2*(1-blendFactor);
			final String entry = String.format(SPLINE_POINT_TEMPLATE, currentX, currentY );
			System.out.println(entry);
			phase += deltaPhase;
			deltaPhase-=deltaDeltaPhase;
		}
		System.out.println("<!-- inverted exp end -->");
	}
}

[GeneralQ]

The rules need to be overhauled anyways.

Well the rules and the limitations are there in order to actually force people to focus their creative sound design on the synth itself rather than going creative with other means.

i have to disagree with your statement. At least this is questionable.
If that would be the point than why are presets not illegal ? Currently they are allowed. In a Sounddesign challange presets should be a no go. However there was once a synthmaster osc where the only free option was the free synthmaster player.
So anyone that don't wants to pay is limited to using some presets the player ships with. And instead of evening out the competition here and allowing full post processing not even distortion is allowed. This is contradictory to that paid third party plugins are allowed. Which is contradictory to that stock plugins are allowed (as people with 800$ daws compete against people that use a free daw or have to collect what they find online).
Another example is the hy-poly challange where free users only had a few oscs and like 4 fx. And the paid users had a huge variety of oscs and a full fx suite and could go full 11 but other users were not allowed to go crazy with their fx because only internal fx can be used for sounddesign.

Another thing I would like to point out, and this is closely tied to my previous reply. The rules prevents the synth to be used to its full potential. During a Surge challange it was told that only single cycle waveforms can be used because wavetable playback would be to close to sampling. While this is technically true that is the whole point of wavetable synthesis. To go beyond static single cycle waveforms. So basically we are restricted to not use one of the main features of wavetable synthesis. This would be like saying "we use an fm synth but envelopes are only allowed to be used on carriers and not on modulators".
Wavetable synthesis can get quite deep if you want. But with the current rules diving deep into wavetable synthesis is illegal. People will never have to worry about aligning zero crossings correctly or maintaing a consistent phase through out the wavetable. We basically turn a wavetable stynth into a subtractive one.


It would be actually intersting to start another challange. Is the OSC voting open to be used by anyone and is there a description on how to set it up ?

[Double Tap]

I'm a bit torn. I think Peter:H's code trick is very clever - at least to someone like me who has even less idea how to code than how to play the bagpipes. And OSC is at least partly about making synths deliver sounds that they weren't necessarily designed to do, whether that's percussion from Monique or something whacky, by dint of the cleverness of the producer.

But if you can use the MSEG to replicate samples that have been at some stage copied and pasted from sounds produced elsewhere, then that does cross the line. Because I could potentially take a Cymatics loop and turn it into MSEG spline points and off we go, I've got a ready-made basis for a track with no composition or sound design involved.

The great thing about OSC is that these issues are there all the time in one way or another - it's impossible to have completely clear and water-tight rules because what seems like legitimate saturation to one person could be unfair distortion to another. Ultimately, the limitations of OSC are part of the reason to do it - forcing yourself to not take the easy route means, theoretically, that you learn something new about how to make music by taking a different route. You could push the rules - I'm sure people could probably get away with using samples or stuff from different synths if they really wanted to - but why would you bother? It's like cheating at solitaire.

In the meantime, Peter, what do I actually do with all that code stuff to make it work? Because I can think of things to do with it outside OSC that I'd like to try. And could you use it in other MSEG editors in other VIs?

[] Peter:H []

In the meantime, Peter, what do I actually do with all that code stuff to make it work? Because I can think of things to do with it outside OSC that I'd like to try. And could you use it in other MSEG editors in other VIs?

No, you cannot use it in other VSTs. The code is written specific for TAL NoiseMakers MSEG only ... it's only generating the text output that I used to copy and past into a NM patch by hand and on top of that you have to programm the other patch parameters to make it work. But I think there are some OSCers who can explain it way better than me.

Just for some cross reference Vital Synth - and this is kind of a gain in knowledge - only supports 99 points in it's MSEG. So TAL has a pretty good MSEG, and a pretty good software design to support thousands of MSEG points. Is this "essential" konwledge? No, not really ... but without someone experimenting we would never come across these things that might show new possibilities.

And btw if it's possible to reproduce a Cymatics sample with TALs MSEG ... sure, why not. Please upload the patch demonstrating it.

[Double Tap]

In the meantime, Peter, what do I actually do with all that code stuff to make it work? Because I can think of things to do with it outside OSC that I'd like to try. And could you use it in other MSEG editors in other VIs?

No, you cannot use it in other VSTs. The code is written specific for TAL NoiseMakers MSEG only ... it's only generating the text output that I used to copy and past into a NM patch by hand and on top of that you have to programm the other patch parameters to make it work. But I think there are some OSCers who can explain it way better than me.

Just for some cross reference Vital Synth - and this is kind of a gain in knowledge - only supports 99 points in it's MSEG. So TAL has a pretty good MSEG, and a pretty good software design to support thousands of MSEG points. Is this "essential" konwledge? No, not really ... but without someone experimenting we would never come across these things that might show new possibilities.

And btw if it's possible to reproduce a Cymatics sample with TALs MSEG ... sure, why not. Please upload the patch demonstrating it.

I'll give it a go if I can figure out what to do with it. But after copying and pasting it, what do I do then? Do I need to download... Python or something? Fortran?

[z.prime]

I'll give it a go if I can figure out what to do with it. But after copying and pasting it, what do I do then? Do I need to download... Python or something? Fortran?

You will need the Java Development Kit and save that as a file named FormulaToSplinePoints.java and then run javac FormulaToSplinePoints.java. And then you can run it using java FormulaToSplinePoints, if memory serves...

[ELEX]

Peter's posted code seems to me to be a specialized oscillator that runs for 12000 samples. Essentially another synth. Capturing it's output and importing it in Noisemaker still constitutes sampling imo. But it is indeed very clever and makes for a great Noisemaker demo track. Just not one that complies with OSC rules.

[ELEX]

..why are presets not illegal ? Currently they are allowed. In a Sounddesign challenge presets should be a no go...

Agreed, presets should ideally be a no go, but it's very hard to verify their use, isn't it ? Also, little tweak - preset no longer. So "no presets" would be a very difficult rule to enforce.

Another example is the hy-poly challenge where free users only had a few oscs and like 4 fx. And the paid users had a huge variety of oscs and a full fx suite and could go full 11 but other users were not allowed to go crazy with their fx because only internal fx can be used for sounddesign.

Could not agree more. In such cases all should use the free version, imo. To do otherwise seems unreasonable to me.

This is contradictory to that paid third party plugins are allowed. Which is contradictory to that stock plugins are allowed (as people with 800$ daws compete against people that use a free daw or have to collect what they find online).

Paid 3rd party plugins are not allowed. And stock plugins are subject to the same restrictions as any other effects, aren't they ? So no major advantages there. There are excellent free plugins also. Tokyo Dawn's free plugs are hard to beat, for instance. I'd say the playing field is level enough if all use the same version of a given instrument.

Another thing I would like to point out, and this is closely tied to my previous reply. The rules prevents the synth to be used to its full potential. During a Surge challange it was told that only single cycle waveforms can be used because wavetable playback would be to close to sampling. While this is technically true that is the whole point of wavetable synthesis. To go beyond static single cycle waveforms. So basically we are restricted to not use one of the main features of wavetable synthesis. This would be like saying "we use an fm synth but envelopes are only allowed to be used on carriers and not on modulators".

Is this indeed the case ? I.e. is it not allowed to use a table of single cycle waveforms ? I thought the intention of rules in this case is to prevent import of samples as wavetable and achieve sample playback by scanning the table. Tables consisting of single cycles and scanning those should be acceptable imo.