One of my exes was an apprentice at a temple for a 5 year period. He is one of the best people I've ever known. I highly recommend if you can do it to do so.Andrew Vernon wrote:I want to go live in a monastery for a while and get some buddhism in my balls.
Black innovation?
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- KVRAF
- 1818 posts since 5 Apr, 2002 from Seattle, WA, USA
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- KVRAF
- 2058 posts since 23 Sep, 2004 from Canada
Wow and phew what a long thread.
Ok I'm white (we'll get that boring ass fact over and done with).
That said I'm the first to admit that most of the major music innovations have happened in the underground forged largely by black musicians.
Am I fully aware of that fact.
Hell Yeah.
Do I prefer the whitebread processed alternative.
Ummmm definately not.
That is not to say there have not been white musicians with plenty of soul who have had great input into scene's like jazz , house , techno , soul , disco etc etc.
Many of whom have come from the purest intentions of
furthering the artform for it's ownsake and not getting rich off it either.
I find it rather disconcerting for example that someone like Eminem seems to validate the commercial viability of hip hop - pretty screwy and friggin insane at best.
Ditto Elvis etc etc..
On the up side the highest form of flatery is more often than not immitation.
That said know your roots and give credit where credits due to the originators of such styles.
Encourage people to invest an interest in and an ear for the pioneers of these musical styles and genres.
A large portion of this thread negates certain factors also.
European/Western music scales are undoubtedly "white in origin".
Where would jazz etc be without the marriage of those keys , chords and scales ?
The black community has been exceptionally good at marrying many of these concepts with the tradition of rythmn and groove in many stylistic forms over the last 100 years.
I would definately say they where masters of it.
There is however Ying and Yang in everything.
Where would House or Techno be without the beauty of PFunk , Disco and Soul if it never married the Tutonic stylings of Kraftwerk?
Where would alot of modern musical styles be without the principals of musique concrete , cut and paste , found sound , ambience and the likes of Cage , Reich and Stockhausen ?
Even early Kraut Rock artists had a big influence on modern electronic as we know it also.
As did early synth pioneers Buchla and Moog.
And dare I say that the gay communty had as much input into alot of rythmic underground (particularly disco / house / techno / hi-nrg / electro etc) as any other community did.
Infact the black and gay communities pretty much let the groove live on when everyone else gave up the ghost.
I could also argue here how many "heterosexual" artists of x,y,z skin colour got or do get far more credit than their homosexual counterparts.
Lets face it Paradise Garage and The Warehouse in Chicago where not exactly the "straightest" of venues playing cutting edge underground grooves.
Sure they where predominantly black (well not so much Paradise Garage) but how many Black American artists are willing too pay due respect to their homosexual counterparts also ?
I must admit the majority of the music I heard in gay clubs in the late 80's was of Detroit/Chicago origin.
Mid 80's it was more electro and hi-nrg artists like Sylvester with a healthy dose of UK acts like Heaven 17, Franky Goes To Hollywood, CabaretVoltaire , Yazoo , Visage and other "new wave artists.
German artists like Nina Hagen where absolutely huge gay icons also as was the venerable Grace Jones who released some killer material in the early to mid 80's.
So the sound track to my younger clubbing life was pretty much Chicage House , old skool disco , hi-nrg , soul , techno , electro , reggae , dub and the like.
95% of it was easily predominantly black.
It was shake your ass funky as all f**k and had an almost spiritual earthy uplifting quality too it.
My life would have never been the same without it.
So the sword definately cuts both ways here.
Life isn't always fare.
In a perfect world it definately would be.
Sadly we don't live in utopia though do we.
People to often let cultural perceptions and social sterotypes govern the way they judge and view things.
The sad reality is that people are equally as quilty of this on all sides of universal humanitarian experience.
Ok I'm white (we'll get that boring ass fact over and done with).
That said I'm the first to admit that most of the major music innovations have happened in the underground forged largely by black musicians.
Am I fully aware of that fact.
Hell Yeah.
Do I prefer the whitebread processed alternative.
Ummmm definately not.
That is not to say there have not been white musicians with plenty of soul who have had great input into scene's like jazz , house , techno , soul , disco etc etc.
Many of whom have come from the purest intentions of
furthering the artform for it's ownsake and not getting rich off it either.
I find it rather disconcerting for example that someone like Eminem seems to validate the commercial viability of hip hop - pretty screwy and friggin insane at best.
Ditto Elvis etc etc..
On the up side the highest form of flatery is more often than not immitation.
That said know your roots and give credit where credits due to the originators of such styles.
Encourage people to invest an interest in and an ear for the pioneers of these musical styles and genres.
A large portion of this thread negates certain factors also.
European/Western music scales are undoubtedly "white in origin".
Where would jazz etc be without the marriage of those keys , chords and scales ?
The black community has been exceptionally good at marrying many of these concepts with the tradition of rythmn and groove in many stylistic forms over the last 100 years.
I would definately say they where masters of it.
There is however Ying and Yang in everything.
Where would House or Techno be without the beauty of PFunk , Disco and Soul if it never married the Tutonic stylings of Kraftwerk?
Where would alot of modern musical styles be without the principals of musique concrete , cut and paste , found sound , ambience and the likes of Cage , Reich and Stockhausen ?
Even early Kraut Rock artists had a big influence on modern electronic as we know it also.
As did early synth pioneers Buchla and Moog.
And dare I say that the gay communty had as much input into alot of rythmic underground (particularly disco / house / techno / hi-nrg / electro etc) as any other community did.
Infact the black and gay communities pretty much let the groove live on when everyone else gave up the ghost.
I could also argue here how many "heterosexual" artists of x,y,z skin colour got or do get far more credit than their homosexual counterparts.
Lets face it Paradise Garage and The Warehouse in Chicago where not exactly the "straightest" of venues playing cutting edge underground grooves.
Sure they where predominantly black (well not so much Paradise Garage) but how many Black American artists are willing too pay due respect to their homosexual counterparts also ?
I must admit the majority of the music I heard in gay clubs in the late 80's was of Detroit/Chicago origin.
Mid 80's it was more electro and hi-nrg artists like Sylvester with a healthy dose of UK acts like Heaven 17, Franky Goes To Hollywood, CabaretVoltaire , Yazoo , Visage and other "new wave artists.
German artists like Nina Hagen where absolutely huge gay icons also as was the venerable Grace Jones who released some killer material in the early to mid 80's.
So the sound track to my younger clubbing life was pretty much Chicage House , old skool disco , hi-nrg , soul , techno , electro , reggae , dub and the like.
95% of it was easily predominantly black.
It was shake your ass funky as all f**k and had an almost spiritual earthy uplifting quality too it.
My life would have never been the same without it.
So the sword definately cuts both ways here.
Life isn't always fare.
In a perfect world it definately would be.
Sadly we don't live in utopia though do we.
People to often let cultural perceptions and social sterotypes govern the way they judge and view things.
The sad reality is that people are equally as quilty of this on all sides of universal humanitarian experience.
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
to be honest i didnt hear anything about gender here.Lady J wrote:notice this whole post was about men?
forget the fact that two women for better or worse completely shook up the music industry in the 80s and 90s....
oh yeah and they were white too but still...
Cordelia wrote:It would be nice if race weren't an issue with regards to music, I know it isn't an issue to most musicians I know.
But in the U.S. music industry, especially in radio, it is a BIG issue. Most U.S. "urban" stations (those owned by Viacom and Clear Channel for example) have a policy officially called "putting a black face" on urban radio.
What that means is, black artists are allotted a finite amount of airplay time, while white artists like Eminem and Kid Rock who are creating "urban" music are given the bulk of the rotation, and the fees (independent promotion fees) normally demanded from record labels for spins are waived.
This is because the executives and program directors at these stations are trying to attract a young, white male, suburban audience, and they truly believe that if not for white rappers, young American males would not tune in. Whether or not that assumption is based on statistical evidence, I'm not sure.
To sit down at dinner with executives from Viacom and Clear Channel is to take a trip waaay back in time. I have been absolutely shocked by their blatant and unapologetic racism.
So, the road to airplay for a black rapper in the U.S. is a long, hard, expensive one, but a white male artist creating "black" music is seen as a savior.
Soulkraka, I'm sorry you feel invisible, but you're right- Elvis, Glenn Miller, Eminem, the Beastie Boys.. This is not a random pattern. Racism in the U.S. music industry is institutionalized, it's far uglier than most of us could imagine.
So, what's the next new thing? I don't know, but I do know we won't hear much of it on U.S. radio until a white boys mimics it, waters it down, makes it more appealing to young white males, and by then it won't really be new at all.
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- KVRAF
- 1972 posts since 18 Apr, 2004
FaX wrote:Wow and phew what a long thread.
Ok I'm white (we'll get that boring ass fact over and done with).
That said I'm the first to admit that most of the major music innovations have happened in the underground forged largely by black musicians.
Am I fully aware of that fact.
Hell Yeah.
Do I prefer the whitebread processed alternative.
Ummmm definately not.
That is not to say there have not been white musicians with plenty of soul who have had great input into scene's like jazz , house , techno , soul , disco etc etc.
Many of whom have come from the purest intentions of
furthering the artform for it's ownsake and not getting rich off it either.
I find it rather disconcerting for example that someone like Eminem seems to validate the commercial viability of hip hop - pretty screwy and friggin insane at best.
Ditto Elvis etc etc..
On the up side the highest form of flatery is more often than not immitation.
That said know your roots and give credit where credits due to the originators of such styles.
Encourage people to invest an interest in and an ear for the pioneers of these musical styles and genres.
A large portion of this thread negates certain factors also.
European/Western music scales are undoubtedly "white in origin".
Where would jazz etc be without the marriage of those keys , chords and scales ?
The black community has been exceptionally good at marrying many of these concepts with the tradition of rythmn and groove in many stylistic forms over the last 100 years.
I would definately say they where masters of it.
There is however Ying and Yang in everything.
Where would House or Techno be without the beauty of PFunk , Disco and Soul if it never married the Tutonic stylings of Kraftwerk?
Where would alot of modern musical styles be without the principals of musique concrete , cut and paste , found sound , ambience and the likes of Cage , Reich and Stockhausen ?
Even early Kraut Rock artists had a big influence on modern electronic as we know it also.
As did early synth pioneers Buchla and Moog.
And dare I say that the gay communty had as much input into alot of rythmic underground (particularly disco / house / techno / hi-nrg / electro etc) as any other community did.
Infact the black and gay communities pretty much let the groove live on when everyone else gave up the ghost.
I could also argue here how many "heterosexual" artists of x,y,z skin colour got or do get far more credit than their homosexual counterparts.
Lets face it Paradise Garage and The Warehouse in Chicago where not exactly the "straightest" of venues playing cutting edge underground grooves.
Sure they where predominantly black (well not so much Paradise Garage) but how many Black American artists are willing too pay due respect to their homosexual counterparts also ?
I must admit the majority of the music I heard in gay clubs in the late 80's was of Detroit/Chicago origin.
Mid 80's it was more electro and hi-nrg artists like Sylvester with a healthy dose of UK acts like Heaven 17, Franky Goes To Hollywood, CabaretVoltaire , Yazoo , Visage and other "new wave artists.
German artists like Nina Hagen where absolutely huge gay icons also as was the venerable Grace Jones who released some killer material in the early to mid 80's.
So the sound track to my younger clubbing life was pretty much Chicage House , old skool disco , hi-nrg , soul , techno , electro , reggae , dub and the like.
95% of it was easily predominantly black.
It was shake your ass funky as all f#@k and had an almost spiritual earthy uplifting quality too it.
My life would have never been the same without it.
So the sword definately cuts both ways here.
Life isn't always fare.
In a perfect world it definately would be.
Sadly we don't live in utopia though do we.
People to often let cultural perceptions and social sterotypes govern the way they judge and view things.
The sad reality is that people are equally as quilty of this on all sides of universal humanitarian experience.
great post fax
and ya'll didn't know it but fax is the cat that inspired me to try my electronic inclinations within the hiphop that I do, on another board long time ago I heard some shit he did with an rs7000 and read post where he was explaining how he does his shit, after that I was like f**k, the way this dude views his methods is kind of poetic and that's what got me interested in going further, even though I didn't know what the f**k he was talking about I knew that if I learned a little bit of it I'd be better off.
now thats credit due.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 22 Mar, 2002 from Happily in So Cal
Quite a thread! I'm joining in when it's but 15 pages old!
A few things I want to respond to said by various people in this thread.
To those who say the discusion of race is pointless, silly and virtually moot in this day and age, I say just the fact that the very subject brings so many impassioned, sometimes angry and always voluminous responses shows that the subject is always hiding just beneath the surface. When the discussions of black-white issues become mundane, ho-hum and stirs little reaction
then we will have made progress. Moral: you can't just wish it away.
Why is it important to note the race/culture of the creators of much of our popular music? Because historically that credit has been co-opted or simply denied. When this is truly not an issue, then we will have made progress. Just a note to some of you younger posters: we didn't start the 21st century with a blank historical slate.
Someone mentioned that the 12 bar blues form has no precedent in European music. True, but in the interest of fairness that form had no precedent in African music either. Though it's true that the field shouts and call and response were the origins of the blues (or at least a proto blues), it's not until the clash of the the European diatonic scale with the West African pentatonic scale with its "fuzzy" (by Euro standards) representations of the 3rd and 7th intervals of the scale that we arrive at the blues. They aren't quite flattened, but to make them fit European intsruments, they became the minor tones against the major scale ("blue" notes) that we know today and gives that melancholic feeling to the blues. Listen to the older bluesmen such as Charley Patton and you hear intervals closer to quarter tones at those 3rd and 7th intervals.
The whole milieu came about as a clash of musical cultures as interpreted by imported Africans. In gerneral West African music was fairly simple in terms of harmony and meoldy but extremely complex rhythmically while European music was complex melodically and harmonically but very basic rhytmically.
The person who felt that Scott Joplin was schooled in classics was correct, particularly Chopin. In fact Joplin's dream was to be a classical pianist but that option wasn't open to him in America in those days. Sad isn't it? Actually, disgraceful is a better word.
A general note to posters: when generalizing, it's is always better to say "most" or "many" rather than "all" because you'll always get the exception to come out of the woodwork who thinks he can prove you wrong. Case in point, the post that referred to whites keeping the blues and jazz alive because "black people couldn't name a jazz or blues artist if their life depended on it" was immediately answered indignantly by the exception. To Mr. Exception, I'm glad that you know your musical heritage but let's face facts. Ever been to a blues festival, a trad jazz festival? Hell ever been to a BB King concert since 1970? (in America anyways) What is the racial composition of the vast majority of the audience? Yeah, I thought so.
Note to those whose powers of perception of the obvious are limited: In the following paragraph I am not in any way advocating slavery or attempting to impart a positive spin on that insidious practice. Just throwing something out there.....
Now for something to munch on. Ever thought of this?
If not for the European slave trade, the blues, jazz, rock and roll, soul, funk, hip hop, techno, reggae, samba, salsa, calypso and many others would simply not exist.
A few things I want to respond to said by various people in this thread.
To those who say the discusion of race is pointless, silly and virtually moot in this day and age, I say just the fact that the very subject brings so many impassioned, sometimes angry and always voluminous responses shows that the subject is always hiding just beneath the surface. When the discussions of black-white issues become mundane, ho-hum and stirs little reaction
then we will have made progress. Moral: you can't just wish it away.
Why is it important to note the race/culture of the creators of much of our popular music? Because historically that credit has been co-opted or simply denied. When this is truly not an issue, then we will have made progress. Just a note to some of you younger posters: we didn't start the 21st century with a blank historical slate.
Someone mentioned that the 12 bar blues form has no precedent in European music. True, but in the interest of fairness that form had no precedent in African music either. Though it's true that the field shouts and call and response were the origins of the blues (or at least a proto blues), it's not until the clash of the the European diatonic scale with the West African pentatonic scale with its "fuzzy" (by Euro standards) representations of the 3rd and 7th intervals of the scale that we arrive at the blues. They aren't quite flattened, but to make them fit European intsruments, they became the minor tones against the major scale ("blue" notes) that we know today and gives that melancholic feeling to the blues. Listen to the older bluesmen such as Charley Patton and you hear intervals closer to quarter tones at those 3rd and 7th intervals.
The whole milieu came about as a clash of musical cultures as interpreted by imported Africans. In gerneral West African music was fairly simple in terms of harmony and meoldy but extremely complex rhythmically while European music was complex melodically and harmonically but very basic rhytmically.
The person who felt that Scott Joplin was schooled in classics was correct, particularly Chopin. In fact Joplin's dream was to be a classical pianist but that option wasn't open to him in America in those days. Sad isn't it? Actually, disgraceful is a better word.
A general note to posters: when generalizing, it's is always better to say "most" or "many" rather than "all" because you'll always get the exception to come out of the woodwork who thinks he can prove you wrong. Case in point, the post that referred to whites keeping the blues and jazz alive because "black people couldn't name a jazz or blues artist if their life depended on it" was immediately answered indignantly by the exception. To Mr. Exception, I'm glad that you know your musical heritage but let's face facts. Ever been to a blues festival, a trad jazz festival? Hell ever been to a BB King concert since 1970? (in America anyways) What is the racial composition of the vast majority of the audience? Yeah, I thought so.
Note to those whose powers of perception of the obvious are limited: In the following paragraph I am not in any way advocating slavery or attempting to impart a positive spin on that insidious practice. Just throwing something out there.....
Now for something to munch on. Ever thought of this?
If not for the European slave trade, the blues, jazz, rock and roll, soul, funk, hip hop, techno, reggae, samba, salsa, calypso and many others would simply not exist.
Always on the one. Always.
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
True, but I wonder what would be in its place? The technology would still have evolved I believe, so technology lead music would also have. People again want to say that the likes of techno, hip hop and house are all black derivative styles. I argue that they are equally 'technology' derivative styles. Had European composers not shown interest in sampling techniques (musique concrete) its probably the sample as we know it would not have been born.
Dont forget, many of the technologies that feature in todays instruments were first developed and experimented with by European scientists, engineers and artists. Would techno and house have ever arisen without the sampler? Would we be granulating samples in programs like Absynth without the likes of Gabor, Truax and Xenakis?
You could argue that the early 20th century musically pioneers were equally as responsible for dance music as funk and soul artists.
Credit were credit is due - thats what I preach. This isnt an argument black vs white, its a discussion on the TRUE origins of whats been dubbed 'black' music. I believe in crediting the artists involved in these developments, ALL of them. If you sample a James Brown break, its not just the break that influencing the music, its also the technology (probably to a greater extent).
Dont forget, many of the technologies that feature in todays instruments were first developed and experimented with by European scientists, engineers and artists. Would techno and house have ever arisen without the sampler? Would we be granulating samples in programs like Absynth without the likes of Gabor, Truax and Xenakis?
You could argue that the early 20th century musically pioneers were equally as responsible for dance music as funk and soul artists.
Credit were credit is due - thats what I preach. This isnt an argument black vs white, its a discussion on the TRUE origins of whats been dubbed 'black' music. I believe in crediting the artists involved in these developments, ALL of them. If you sample a James Brown break, its not just the break that influencing the music, its also the technology (probably to a greater extent).
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- Banned
- 1842 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from just right here
Black blues music has so much sole. But, it was the white man who designed the guitar and later electrified it, so the black musician could be able to express their sole. And anyway who originaly composed the 12 bar blues, was it from country and western, or what?
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
Huh you said he was hit right away with an idignant respeonse, looking back it seems I was the first to reply too him...so please tell me I was indignant..in fact I wasn't...here is my exact quoteTo Mr. Exception, I'm glad that you know your musical heritage but let's face facts. Ever been to a blues festival, a trad jazz festival? Hell ever been to a BB King concert since 1970? (in America anyways) What is the racial composition of the vast majority of the audience? Yeah, I thought so.
...I think you leave out some key factors...one being location, that might be true in your experience...but that's hardly a universal way of thinking imo. I listen to musicchoice a lot, blues is one I have on my favorites for scrolling through...I can assure that there are many fine, young, black blues players as well as many older ones that set the table for them.
It seems too me you are basing your comment on main stream pop...blues has never been about being mainstream. It survives because culturally it's so diverse and it lives off of the local scenes more then on the big stage. In fact I will be as bold as to say that the most culturally balanced shows I have been to have been blues shows...not a flame or jumping on you, just pointing out some things you might of missed....
in response to above point all I can say is yes I have been to many blues show, many festivalas...there is one coming up next week http://www.lowellfolkfestival.org/ right here in my home town. Go look at the page, while you're at it perhaps you should look up Lowell and discover that Lowell Mass is one of the cuturally diverse cities there is. Perhaps it will occur to you that my statement that it depends on locale could be very accurate. So you get it clear I said the most balanced shows I went to were blues shows...I didn't say a perfect balance.
Maybe you meant someone else not me, if so then forget it...
If you were talking about me then you need to read your own advice and do not make generalizations about people you do not know, and perhaps you might owe an apology...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
FYI, the proper spelling is 'soul' not 'sole' (sorry, both my parents were school teachers)Rangtangtang wrote:Black blues music has so much sole. But, it was the white man who designed the guitar and later electrified it, so the black musician could be able to express their sole. And anyway who originaly composed the 12 bar blues, was it from country and western, or what?
Who said the white man designed the guitar? And don't be so sure that white man was the first to electrify it either.
True that Beuchamp had his 'frying pan', and Les Paul had his 'log', but there were also people jamming phonograph needles into the tops of their acoustic guitars to amplify it's signal.
Beuchamp and Paul patented and made products, but it doesn't mean they were the first.
It's a symbiotic relationship as pointed out earlier. Celebrate the race of the inventor/innovator, but don't make it the central point, because it really doesn't help move music forward to concentrate on race so much.
So, I thank everyone who went before and tried something new, no matter what their race.
Tip of the hat to Les Paul, not so much for the mass produced electric guitar as for multi-track recording. Now that's something we all can appreciate.
BTW, my race is unknown. I'm sure I'm a mixed bag of some kind I know that I have heritage that goes back to ancestors from northern Europe, but even then who can guarantee what their race is?
My appearance looks as if it's European; or what some would call 'Caucasian'; which is in itself a complete misnomer. Look up the etymology of that word here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Caucasian
-Scott
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Right now my ankles are so white that they need to coin and new category! Maybe uber-caucasian or something to that effect.
Ironically, in Thailand white skin is most desirable. Apparently the girls all hide away from the sun and apply while makeup. This is not dissimilar to what happened with black people in the US - darker skin, fuller lips all became the rage a few decades ago. Isnt it funny how the different and unusal becomes the desirable?
Ironically, in Thailand white skin is most desirable. Apparently the girls all hide away from the sun and apply while makeup. This is not dissimilar to what happened with black people in the US - darker skin, fuller lips all became the rage a few decades ago. Isnt it funny how the different and unusal becomes the desirable?
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 7 May, 2002 from Sydney, Australia
Here's an article I wrote a while back for a digital media reader which deals (sort of) with some of these issues. Starts off looking at the european separation of "music" and "sound art" (or noise etc. , then goes into some African social notions of rhythm and their transformation within european cultures, finally tieing the development of "automatic" rhythm processes within music software to that transformation/adaptation.
It's all very polemic and opinionated ... so this is the perfect thread for it
http://staff.cofa.unsw.edu.au/~simonhun ... _dance.pdf
It's all very polemic and opinionated ... so this is the perfect thread for it
http://staff.cofa.unsw.edu.au/~simonhun ... _dance.pdf
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 22 Mar, 2002 from Happily in So Cal
Hink say:
So I beleive that what the original poster (OldDevil?) said, that the blues and (non-fusion)jazz could not survive financially strictly from African American support.
I went back and checked the thread and no it wasn't you that I was referring to.Huh you said he was hit right away with an idignant respeonse, looking back it seems I was the first to reply too him...so please tell me I was indignant..in fact I wasn't...
Well, good for Lowell. All I can say is that in California, and I've attended blues and jazz shows from San Francsico to San Diego and all stops between since the 1970's, the audience is owerwhelmingly white. In fact, in many situations there are about as many black people in attendance as you would see at a Shania Twain concert.in response to above point all I can say is yes I have been to many blues show, many festivalas...there is one coming up next week http://www.lowellfolkfestival.org/ right here in my home town. Go look at the page, while you're at it perhaps you should look up Lowell and discover that Lowell Mass is one of the cuturally diverse cities there is. Perhaps it will occur to you that my statement that it depends on locale could be very accurate. So you get it clear I said the most balanced shows I went to were blues shows...I didn't say a perfect balance.
So I beleive that what the original poster (OldDevil?) said, that the blues and (non-fusion)jazz could not survive financially strictly from African American support.
Always on the one. Always.
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- KVRAF
- 1972 posts since 18 Apr, 2004
Mal DuFunq wrote: A general note to posters: when generalizing, it's is always better to say "most" or "many" rather than "all" because you'll always get the exception to come out of the woodwork who thinks he can prove you wrong. Case in point, the post that referred to whites keeping the blues and jazz alive because "black people couldn't name a jazz or blues artist if their life depended on it" was immediately answered indignantly by the exception. To Mr. Exception, I'm glad that you know your musical heritage but let's face facts. Ever been to a blues festival, a trad jazz festival? Hell ever been to a BB King concert since 1970? (in America anyways) What is the racial composition of the vast majority of the audience? Yeah, I thought so.
you thought wrong my friend, go to any rap/hiphop concert, festival, show and all you'll see is white people too. do you think that means that black people
don't know about rap/hiphop.... no you don't think that do you.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
so like I said location has a lot to do with it....but no offense....why is it cali=all of the usa so often, I'm not saying just you...it just seems to be almost a cliche lately. If you go to New Orleans, trust me you're gonna see a totally different music scene then say Dallas...Detroit will be quite different then Boston...surely Chicago blues, New Orleans Blues (delta) and Texas Blues are three different beasts....Well, good for Lowell. All I can say is that in California, and I've attended blues and jazz shows from San Francsico to San Diego and all stops between since the 1970's, the audience is owerwhelmingly white.
I didn't dispute that, but I did point out that the blues are not gonna survive or never have survived by any race, creed, religion or color..they survive by the artists drive, commitment and perseverance. But blues isn't about survival of financial success...there are people playing the blues on 3 dollar harps they bought 50 years ago...to compare it to overly commercialized, mainstream, hottie of the week pop is like comparing apples and asteroids...So I beleive that what the original poster (OldDevil?) said, that the blues and (non-fusion)jazz could not survive financially strictly from African American support.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRian
- 692 posts since 10 Apr, 2004
You point can be validated with just a mouse click on a KVR Banner. Just Click on Sony's AcidPlanet.com and take a sample of the contests they have posted over the years. As a Acid Pro user, this is not a protest as to how Sony run their company. I just hope that some of these GIFTED musicians would produce some quality sample CDs for my music.. Please.Cordelia wrote:It would be nice if race weren't an issue with regards to music, I know it isn't an issue to most musicians I know.
But in the U.S. music industry, especially in radio, it is a BIG issue. Most U.S. "urban" stations (those owned by Viacom and Clear Channel for example) have a policy officially called "putting a black face" on urban radio.
What that means is, black artists are allotted a finite amount of airplay time, while white artists like Eminem and Kid Rock who are creating "urban" music are given the bulk of the rotation, and the fees (independent promotion fees) normally demanded from record labels for spins are waived.
This is because the executives and program directors at these stations are trying to attract a young, white male, suburban audience, and they truly believe that if not for white rappers, young American males would not tune in. Whether or not that assumption is based on statistical evidence, I'm not sure.
To sit down at dinner with executives from Viacom and Clear Channel is to take a trip waaay back in time. I have been absolutely shocked by their blatant and unapologetic racism.
So, the road to airplay for a black rapper in the U.S. is a long, hard, expensive one, but a white male artist creating "black" music is seen as a savior.
Soulkraka, I'm sorry you feel invisible, but you're right- Elvis, Glenn Miller, Eminem, the Beastie Boys.. This is not a random pattern. Racism in the U.S. music industry is institutionalized, it's far uglier than most of us could imagine.
So, what's the next new thing? I don't know, but I do know we won't hear much of it on U.S. radio until a white boys mimics it, waters it down, makes it more appealing to young white males, and by then it won't really be new at all.
