Live 6

[pdxindy]

If they do like last year there's bound to be an introductory offer that's better than what is listed... *crosses fingers*

an Ableton rep said there would be special bundle prices (but not what they were)

[headquest]

Whether it's greed, necessity, or a genuine desire to reposition Live in the market, the implications of Ableton's price hike are hard to simply ignore.

I must admit that I am having no trouble ignoring those implications

. Good for you

The last time I saw a music software company inexplicably hike the price of an upcoming product, they burst its bubble pretty much for good. . Let's see how the reviewers respond to this one, and whether Ableton can remain the darlings of the sequencer world anyway .

The review I'll be doing doesn't require a score out of 10 (it's about using Live in educational context primarily), but in mags where they do that I'm predicting they get fewer awards this coming year, and that their scores drop from 9/10 in reviews to maybe 8/10 because of the value for money issue - just writers instincts

I've said my piece, and I'm not going to labour the point further. I Love Live , think the upgrade looks superb and will certainly be buying it (possibly with the extras depending on the bundles they offer)... but am just beginning to change my impression of the company Ableton somewhat, because I simply hate what looks to me at all like arrogance or greed. There was a glimpse of this when Operator came out, and in view of the user backlash and press comments (the biggest magazine refused to review it ) I thought they would have given more thought to remaining competitive. But there it is.

For my part I'm moving house in September, and there will no doubt be the annual Sonar update to factor in, so it's going to be an expensive month!

[headquest]

It is fairly easy to get a copy of Live Lite as it is bundled with quite a bit. Then the upgrade price is a reasonable $250, there is no need to get Operator or Sampler. The avenue is still there for someone to get the full program at a pretty cheap price.

I'm not justifying their price hikes, just pointing out that the person without much money can still get in on Live without too much pain.

That's good to remember - cheers buddy

an Ableton rep said there would be special bundle prices (but not what they were)

Oddly though, the guy who made that claim on the forum isn't listed as an Ableton employee on their website...

Anyway, if past experience is anything to go by (which possibly at this point it isn't!) they will probably drop the price of Operator and/or Sampler by around $50 each if you buy them at the same time as your upgrade (or new Live product).

[Cyniq]

Having come from an older version of Cubase, I think Ableton 5 is fantastic. Their way of doing anything (zooming view, for example in Arrange) is so intuitive and efficient.

I think you're all a bunch of spoilt tools who aren't happy if they can't modulate, say, a pan with midi note. Or some such other esoteric stuff that would only matter if you aint got a decent idea anyway.

Tools.

Stop dicking about and write better music.

Tools.

[headquest]

Nice first post Cyniq.

Considering your point, your user name is interesting...

Welcome to KVR.

[Cyniq]

Ah, I've been here for ever, just had to rejoin.

[headquest]

In that case you make sure you've mended your ways young man

[tweakin]

Having come from an older version of Cubase, I think Ableton 5 is fantastic. Their way of doing anything (zooming view, for example in Arrange) is so intuitive and efficient.

I think you're all a bunch of spoilt tools who aren't happy if they can't modulate, say, a pan with midi note. Or some such other esoteric stuff that would only matter if you aint got a decent idea anyway.

Tools.

Stop dicking about and write better music.

Tools.

Bahaha... got a chuckle out of that!...

Yeh on a serious note, most of the people (fellow live owners) I've spoken to online and in person seem to be saying similar things to headquest regarding the changing public view of Ableton as a corporation: "they used to be all about the people..."

I'm really umming and ahhing about upgrading to 6, especially seeing as at long last i STILL won't be able to host vst's while rewire slaved [/axe grind].

We'll see.. if they actually decide to look after Live 5 owners with a good upgrade deal, maybe. otherwise I'll be waiting to see what it's really like before making them fatter.

Like many people have said I still love the product, I wish they would do themselves some favours

[dgkenney]

I'm really umming and ahhing about upgrading to 6, especially seeing as at long last i STILL won't be able to host vst's while rewire slaved [/axe grind].

This is a sore point for me too, since it would open up a lot of flexibility in my set-up. Given some of the juicy features of Live 6 however, I am pretty much in for the upgrade

We'll see.. if they actually decide to look after Live 5 owners with a good upgrade deal, maybe. otherwise I'll be waiting to see what it's really like before making them fatter.

I hope that's the case also. My motivation is not JUST about the money, but, perhaps naively, it is also about the feeling of community with the Abletons. Since I also own Cubase, I already know how it feels to be an afterthought.


Dan

Dan

[headquest]

My motivation is not JUST about the money, but, perhaps naively, it is also about the feeling of community with the Abletons. Since I also own Cubase, I already know how it feels to be an afterthought.
Dan

Absolutely - the same feeling here .

[pdxindy]

well, they got me... I'm so stoked about the improvements in Live 6, I just don't care about the price.

I've been using Live for 6 months or so, so no long term experience with the company and its attitude, but Robert Henke has been regularly in the Live forum answering questions. He speaks openly and honestly, answers complex questions, talks about their vision for the software and the challenges of meeting peoples expectations. His attitude is not corporate and he is genuinely enthused about it. He is only 1 person though and not involved anymore in the financial side of things.

I like the truly small developers the best. Urs is amazing with both his customer service and his commitment to make Zebra2 great. Smaller is better. Companies get bigger and vision starts to give way to economic reality. That is happening with Ableton, but this is almost inevitable living in economies where growth is everything.

You know, plant some flowers, watch them grow and finally bloom, then they wither and die. Live is reaching the height of its bloom. It's a lovely flower and I'm gonna enjoy it and not worry to much about what will eventually follow.

Tracktion on the otherhand, may never fully bloom because it got repotted.

[kuniklo]

but am just beginning to change my impression of the company Ableton somewhat, because I simply hate what looks to me at all like arrogance or greed.

There's a pattern here:

1. Small upstart company introduces new music making tool. it doesn't do everything the big packages do but it makes some of the common tasks a lot simpler and maybe adds a couple of new & interesting twists. The developers are eager to interact with the small but zealous user community that flocks to the new tool out of frustration with the complexity of their old tools and the perceived indifference and arrogance of its developer.

2. User requests start pouring in becaused people want to use the new tool for everything because it's so simple and fun and easy to use but is just missing feature X to finally replace all their old tool.

3. Developers obligingly respond to user requests. New features are added a breakneck pace. Everybody is happy for the first few versions and brags about how responsive and user-oriented the developer is.

4. Gradually the user base grows and it becomes more and more difficult for the developer to respond personally to all the user requests and maintain the old development schedule. Response times suffer and a few people start to grumble that the developer doesn't care the way they used to.

5. With each new version an increasingly large fraction of the userbase is disappointed that the developers ignored their personal favorite request. An equally large group is angry that a bunch of features they don't care about were implemented and that the essential simplicity of the tool is being lost.

6. Little by little, the new tool begins to bloat into the bad old tool it replaced as new feature after new feature is added, often in an awkward way because the over-simplicity of the original architecture didn't really allow for major new feature Y.

7. Disenchanted users start looking for some new shiny tool without all the complexity of the new old tool and with a developer that "really cares" about users and user requests. Go to step 1.

Tracktion, Live, EnergyXT etc etc will one day be the Cubases and Logics of the world and some new upstart will take their place. Just pick the point on the cycle where you can actually get some work done and live with it.

[shamann]

There's a pattern here:

1. Small upstart company introduces new music making tool. it doesn't do everything the big packages do but it makes some of the common tasks a lot simpler and maybe adds a couple of new & interesting twists. The developers are eager to interact with the small but zealous user community that flocks to the new tool out of frustration with the complexity of their old tools and the perceived indifference and arrogance of its developer.

2. User requests start pouring in becaused people want to use the new tool for everything because it's so simple and fun and easy to use but is just missing feature X to finally replace all their old tool.

3. Developers obligingly respond to user requests. New features are added a breakneck pace. Everybody is happy for the first few versions and brags about how responsive and user-oriented the developer is.

4. Gradually the user base grows and it becomes more and more difficult for the developer to respond personally to all the user requests and maintain the old development schedule. Response times suffer and a few people start to grumble that the developer doesn't care the way they used to.

5. With each new version an increasingly large fraction of the userbase is disappointed that the developers ignored their personal favorite request. An equally large group is angry that a bunch of features they don't care about were implemented and that the essential simplicity of the tool is being lost.

6. Little by little, the new tool begins to bloat into the bad old tool it replaced as new feature after new feature is added, often in an awkward way because the over-simplicity of the original architecture didn't really allow for major new feature Y.

7. Disenchanted users start looking for some new shiny tool without all the complexity of the new old tool and with a developer that "really cares" about users and user requests. Go to step 1.

I sigh heavily. All too familiar, isn't it?

On the one hand I wish developers would stay the course on their idea of what the software should be. I've used Audiomulch for 7 or 8 years now, I think it has successfully remained Ross's baby (which has been beneficial for users in the long run, but I'm sure at the expense of fulfilling everyone's desires). But I also don't think Ross has ever made a living from Mulch.

So on the other hand, it's tough to begrudge the developers for just trying to succeed at business, and sometimes to do so they must bend with the wind.

But, it's a fine line, there's a difference between being flexible and pandering to all comers. With pandering comes the slide towards bloat and neglect.

[fabi]

ext so far has remained flexible enough to be used in its simple original intent. i use mainly the main window with a bunch of midi and audio routing. few sound sources, loads of effects - delays and granulizers, spectral compressors, panorama for binaural pseudo-3d sound...

i guess it can be used in many many other ways. the question is, whether new features are intrusive to old work flow, and to me such has not been the case with eXT, although we will see whether xt2 will live up to its hype expectations. i certainly hope so, but

now other hosts, such as (imho at least) FL have done a little worse in dealing with feature bloat. audio and midi routing are a pita... imho... it does mean it keeps some of its own character, though, which is good in my book - inspires its own work flow.

audiomulch i like, but the lack of midi routing often kills it for me. doesn't mean i'll go around crying that it NEEDS to be added, because as it is, it's a great tool in its own right.

[fabi]

and about live:

i wish there was a less bloated version, maybe loadable as vst. i'd definitely buy that, but as it is now, neither the lite version nor the full version would be my thing, really. i want live for its own advantages, not for imported bloat.

ymmv