How Many Units Does A Hit Synth Sell?

[andy-cytomic]

I think with the mac and win thing there are more people buying plugins on mac because there are more people viewing their purchase of a computer as a means to record and produce music - it's an investment in kit that they want to work with a minimum of fuss. This is similar to people previously buying an M1 keyboard that Angus has mentioned - it's a solution for them, and if anything goes wrong they want to get help with it.

Unreliable cracks that timeout aren't really that enticing just to have a few extra plugins they then have to waste even more time working out how to use when they have just got to grips with their existing software! These are the annoying types of people that often actually get music written and then played, to more than 10 people. As far as I can tell from my own sales these people make up the majority of my customer base - although admittedly they are at the techier end of the scale since Cytomic is currently online only.

[Wintermute]

This is an excellent thread; probably the most insightful I have read on KVR in years.

And given that the topic is such a sensitive one, I found that most people were amazingly open and polite.

I would especially like to thank Urs and Ben from Camel Audio for their honest and informative answers (I already bought Alchemy during the group buy last year, and I hope to own a Zebra one day ).

OK, my part of the story: I work for the software industry. It doesn't matter what it is exactly I'm doing, but on my client list you'll find both Microsoft and very small companies.

I enjoy working for the music (software/instruments) industry more than anything else, because I still regard myself as a musician (admittedly, the same is true for every other cab driver out there... ) , and I have a lot of respect especially for the small, innovative companies. IMO, they create dream machines: software that translates musical ideas into yet unheard soundscapes.

For a lot of reasons (saving the environment, flexibility, artistic freedom, democratization of production tools etc.), I was very excited when twenty years ago, the transition from hardware to virtual/software started.

I think many promises have been fulfilled for the musician/producer/user. We can now download and install very sophisticated instruments in minutes. Try that with the kind of Roland or Yamaha product I used to crave...

On the other hand, it saddens me to see that at least some of these brillant guys couldn't survive without a "proper day job" to support them. Here's someone developing a wonderful instrument instead of helping Soulless MegaCorp, Inc. crunching their numbers - and he is rewarded by having a zero deleted from the wrong end of his paycheck.

So for me, this thread has shown (again) that the cynicism of many people using warez ("come on' you're all just f*ckin rich bastards!") is not justified. And while I don't think every pirated copy is a lost sale, I do believe that piracy is hurting creative people and eventually everyone who depends on their work (sales, marketing, support).

Today, most people I know do in one way or another create or process information or art. Yet many of them feel that ripping off software developers is perfectly OK.

This is schizophrenic.

Eg.g., there's a former friend who is working at a big faceless company. He would like to be a professional photographer instead - you know, "being creative" instead of working "for the man" etc.

This guy bought his cameras and lenses, but he is editing his images with an illegal copy of Photoshop. When I asked him about it, he simply shook his head: "Paying for software? No, thanks. All this stuff I'm doing is expensive enough..."

He tries to sell his photos (which are heavily edited and wouldn't look like much without all the Photoshopping) in a gallery and from his web site.

So far, no-one's buying, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people download the mid-size images he put up there as previews. They make pretty wallpapers.

He laments the mentality of all those freeloading *ssholes out there, who are responsible for his "situation".

And he fails to see the irony.

[eduardo_b]

On the other hand, it saddens me to see that at least some of these brillant guys couldn't survive without a "proper day job" to support them. Here's someone developing a wonderful instrument instead of helping Soulless MegaCorp, Inc. crunching their numbers - and he is rewarded by having a zero deleted from the wrong end of his paycheck.

So for me, this thread has shown (again) that the cynicism of many people using warez ("come on' you're all just f*ckin rich bastards!") is not justified. And while I don't think every pirated copy is a lost sale, I do believe that piracy is hurting creative people and eventually everyone who depends on their work (sales, marketing, support).

I appreciate your heartfelt post, but I rather doubt the reality of devs with day jobs would change much even if piracy were all but eliminated as an issue. Realistically, there are simply dozens of competing products in every category of music software. And given the relative size of the market, it's simply not possible for most devs to earn a comfortable living doing nothing else. A handful have spent the hours needed to create products that have rewarded them with good incomes, but the vast majority do not fall into that category. Making a living coding plug-ins doesn't seem a realistic expectation.

[Dr.Wu]

the marketing guys at East&West claim that they have hundreds of thousands of users- a shameless exaggeration even if they included all their pirateusers IMHO

[highkoo]

Making a living coding plug-ins doesn't seem a realistic expectation.

thats the sad elephant in the room.

it is not the most commercially viable 'data' out there.
face it, we are all into some fairly weird shit.

the best synth ever ever EVER is only of interest to a small group of weirdos. and most of us are not the rich kind of weirdo.

but then, the opposite extreme, or maybe a similar example from pljones perspective:
i know a 50+ year old housewife who has made a good living, for years, while using pljones software for the Sims. selling virtual couches and lamps and shit...
hope she gave you a donation at some point pljones...

[pljones]

hope she gave you a donation at some point pljones...

The Sims2 tool wasn't "mine" and the original author never wanted it to have any commercial attachment (as a tool), so never took donations. Me, I'd prefer people to use my Amazon wishlist... no one has... (Well, except my wife.)

[Tp3]

I think with the mac and win thing there are more people buying plugins on mac because there are more people viewing their purchase of a computer as a means to record and produce music - it's an investment in kit that they want to work with a minimum of fuss. This is similar to people previously buying an M1 keyboard that Angus has mentioned - it's a solution for them, and if anything goes wrong they want to get help with it.

I believe that statement is somewhat of a legend that just keep breathing after all those years... it was
the same 17 years ago in the graphic department and it carried on to the music industry up till today...

You seem to forget that there are a LOT of people who have a dedicated PC for music making (like me), which can
be seen as "a computer as a means to record and produce music".

although I've been pondering the idea of having a Mac lately, I still believe that if you are gifted and talented
ANY computer will do. and looking for answers elsewhere WONT make you of a better musician. just as switching
VSTi's in the quest for THAT sound won't make you a better producer.

This thread is an eye-opener for me. not that things are really new to me (I'm a little too old for this...)
but it's like there's now one place for most (if not all) facts.

Regarding cracks and lost revenues... well, it's far too complicated for me to comprehend... but it was
interesting for me to read that (for example) Hollywood has made more money in 2007 (I think) then ever in
it's history... and that is DESPITE the fact that GAZZILIONS of people are DLing movies day and night nowdays...

Unreliable cracks that timeout aren't really that enticing just to have a few extra plugins they then have to waste even more time working out how to use when they have just got to grips with their existing software!

It MAY be true but it is a way of fighting piracy in a legal (and most sophisticated, I might add !) fashion.

These are the annoying types of people that often actually get music written and then played, to more than 10 people. As far as I can tell from my own sales these people make up the majority of my customer base - although admittedly they are at the techier end of the scale since Cytomic is currently online only.

I'm not a native English speaker but what is it exactly that you're saying, Andy ?

Who exactly are those "annoying types of people that often actually get music written and then played, to more than 10 people"...but "As far as I can tell from my own sales these people make up the majority of my customer base" ?

Please correct me if I understood something wrong...

Most of your (and Ben's and Angus' and Urs') customer base will NOT be some new JMJ or Brian Eno or whatnot.

They are bedroom electronic musicians who value your product as means to relay some EMOTION that your product stimulate. playing a "VST that emulates the giants of yesteryear" is one of them, BTW

Finally, I'd like to say that I REALLY dig angus' words :

There are now tens of millions of computers around, and loads of people want to try making music on them, so they are all potential customers,
if the price is right, and if the produce is marketed right

I disagree, the education / knowledge gap there is HUGE, look at how instrument sources are presented in GarageBand to get an idea for where most people are at. You can't sell them a plug-in synth (which requires
knowledge of MIDI, ability to play, understanding of plugin and host relationship...) when the competition is
"Deadmau5 Instant Desktop Beat Maker" or something.

For me, THAT is the KEY to understand how to approach a new audience. Ben is doing a GREAT job with his/their
Videos... Urs is doing a great job... so should ALL others...

WHY ?

Because there is just too much info to grasp and comprehend and time is short.
We want to make music NOW.
You have to prosper and make a living. or else your company will die.

And we all have to meet in the middle...

The way I see it, it's either one can easily learn how to make sounds he can enjoy and be proud of (either by
using "Cool presets" or - preferably - by producing them himself) or it like... "next, please".
More people have to understand how to produce sound with your products.

Just my 0.00002

[pandashake]

These are the annoying types of people that often actually get music written and then played, to more than 10 people. As far as I can tell from my own sales these people make up the majority of my customer base - although admittedly they are at the techier end of the scale since Cytomic is currently online only.

I'm not a native English speaker but what is it exactly that you're saying, Andy ?

Who exactly are those "annoying types of people that often actually get music written and then played, to more than 10 people"...but "As far as I can tell from my own sales these people make up the majority of my customer base" ?

Please correct me if I understood something wrong...

Most of your (and Ben's and Angus' and Urs') customer base will NOT be some new JMJ or Brian Eno or whatnot.

I'm hoping it was sarcasm, because he seemed to be laying it on pretty thick.

[andy-cytomic]

What I tried to say previously was not "mac is better than win" but that over 70% of downloads from cytomic are for the mac version - and of those customers I have been in personal email contact with most of them are small studio owners or musicians making a little money for writing tunes. I believe (but have not done in depth market research to prove) that they bought a mac because of their perception that it's their best option to produce and record music.

[Crandall1]

I'm reading this thread with interest, and I've actually learned a couple things I didn't know about my fellow developers. I noted that the MI Sales Trak has been mentioned as a source of numbers in several comments. I actually get the MI Sales Trak via a friend who shall remain nameless, and I don't mind sharing it here. I'll probably get in trouble for this somehow, and I don't know how long it will stay up, but here's a screenshot from October of '09, for Virtual Instrument sales.

Now, keep in mind that this is only the United States, and only boxed copies, and only brick-n-mortar retailers, or online retailers that have a brick-n-mortar presence. So you can take it to mean all of Guitar Center and Musicians Friend, all of Sweetwater, and quite a few smaller chains, but it doesn't include online sales direct through the company, and it doesn't include many smaller online-only retailers. So, with that said...

[mod edit: It is illegal to repost the information in the graphic that was here. Posting copyrighted data without the copyright holder's permission is not acceptable in a discussion about piracy on a board that bans pirates.]

I think that'll shed some light on this discussion. In looking at the full MI Sales Trak, you'd quickly see that it is far more lucrative to make a DAW than it is to make plug-ins.

[yellowfever]

Now, keep in mind that this is only the United States, and only boxed copies, and only brick-n-mortar retailers, or online retailers that have a brick-n-mortar presence. So you can take it to mean all of Guitar Center and Musicians Friend, all of Sweetwater, and quite a few smaller chains, but it doesn't include online sales direct through the company, and it doesn't include many smaller online-only retailers.

So, with the greatest respect, without the rest of the world and online downloads, the figures are pretty meaningless! I wonder what the percentage split for boxed / downloads is?

[Crandall1]

I agree that the figures are meaningless. I was putting them up to show that MI Sales Trak is pretty pointless. The only thing it's really good at is showing relative sales.

[D N A]

Because there is just too much info to grasp and comprehend and time is short.
We want to make music NOW.
You have to prosper and make a living. or else your company will die.

I agree.

Time is getting more and more important.

During last year, when I started to take music production things more seriously, I realised that I'm getting to use Romplers / Samplers / synths with "custom selected" "best" presets more and more.

I realised that I dont want to spend whole evening creating one single preset because .... I dont have time for this. I prefer to spend this time ie. arranging the song. That's why I need a "complete plugin" with presets that fit my style.

I dont want to scroll through 3000 presets while only 50 work for me, I dont want to scroll through 128 presets just to find 2-3 good (for my genre) presets. Even if such synth is powerful, there's pretty high chance, I won't use it in my projects.

So, If i'm, ie. in trance or house or whatever music production , I need plugin with such presets, not another "all in one" plugin which contains 600 virtually any possible presets from trance pluck, supersaw, through brass, flute. Sure, one such synth is ok (ie. Omnisphere), but whole hard drive of such synths ? Specialisation is getting more important. that is why Sylenth was so successful... It's ultimate EDM machine, not another VA synth which tries to be perfect for everyone but reality is , that it's perfect for nobody I mean, there's pretty big competition between the synths that try to do "everything"

I'm actually surprised that no one tried to create (hehehe) "Progressive House plugin" (or just named EDM) with 40 examples of "boring" plucks, 30 pads suited for sidechaining, 100 minimal house percussive presets (ie. Ableton collision is great in it)), noises. There are tons of threads everywhere: how to sound like deadmau5, how to create this pluck or that pluck, or pad etc. Sure probably a lot of are just kids who would download such product from rapidshare but who knows ? I would buy it, even if I know how to create Deadmau5 pluck

Presets are very important. My theory why Sylenth is so popular is that it offers great factory bank + there are many custom soundbanks you can expand your presets database (most in similar genre). Other synths offer just "some factory bank" which contain pretty much everything + 1-2 3rd party presets. A lot of people use ... freeware Synth1 because of this - there are like 6000 presets. Even if it's a little bit of everything - you can create your own custom bank with "best presets" and have such "ultimate machine" that fit your music style.

90 % of Computer Music / Futre Music "in the studio" videos are about minimal, progressive house producers. EDM webstores are doing fine - especially "house" genres. This is popular and will be for next few years for sure. Speaking of Computer Music Mag - I wonder how many people subscribe it. Certainly more than 5000 ... 50000 ? 100000 ?

ps. sh1t, another wall of text

[yellowfever]

I agree that the figures are meaningless. I was putting them up to show that MI Sales Trak is pretty pointless. The only thing it's really good at is showing relative sales.

I just noticed your sig - I just had a good mannered pop at Audio Damage......
No offence meant mate

[amiga909]

thanks Crandall for sharing this
interesting, the top 10 'only' make 25% of the total sales volume.
also interesting, i never considered using a sinlge one of the mentioned vstis.
... that knowledge gap is huge indeed (sorry for offense, i like to bash NI whenever i can)