I think I finally hate amp sims!

[zerocrossing]

Kind of thinking aloud here, but amp sim, hardware mics or lines, hardware modellers...all share having to undergo an A to D conversion, with a signal that is very complex.
Even good converters might 'dumb down' the signal, and the differences between methods, to an extent ?

That probably wouldn't be it. While the interaction of guitar/pedals/amp/mic is complex, the resulting waveforms aren't anything crazy... especially compared to what a modular synth could dish out. If you've got a good A/D converter that's more or less flat from 20 to 20khz, you should be fine. I'm not saying they don't have the possibility of adding color to your tone in some way, but not in a huge way where you'd miss something.

[fateamenabletochange]

......hhmmm; thanks Zerocrossing, I'll give that some thought. maybe need to stop being so fussy [good enough will do]

[zerocrossing]

And the plot thickens...

The Kemper Profiling Amplifier

it will be interesting to see if this is as good as it sounds and how it 'learns'. I bet it's big bux though, but as per the title of your thread doesn't this just make things worse?

How is this not an amp modeler?

[zerocrossing]

......hhmmm; thanks Zerocrossing, I'll give that some thought. maybe need to stop being so fussy [good enough will do]

I think that line of thinking will help you spend more time making music and less money on toys.

Remember, that amazing creamy Brian May tone was often achieved in the studio with a modded transistor car stereo. Good tone can be found everywhere and doesn't always have to cost thousands.

For me, most of my time playing guitar wasn't with the best gear. First I has some horrible no-name guitar with a Tasico amp. Garbage but I somehow made some cool noise with it. Then I upgraded to a Rickenbacher 320 and a Vox Buckingham. I thought I'd be John Lennon, but I honesty never liked that set up. So my next step just involved a small transistor Marshall combo amp and a G&L Skyhawk. For as cheap as that little amp was, I loved it. Sounded amazing to me and when I auditioned for a band I remembered them saying something like, "Oh, you'll have a different amp for gigs, right?" I didn't. But when I opened 'er up they were all pleasantly surprised.

Of course I did upgrade... again and again. I had some great set ups, and some not so great, but again, I found a way to tweak things to get a sound I liked. Now I'm really enjoying being completely (almost, I do have a blackstar pedal I really dig) "in the box." It takes up nearly zero space in my studio and I've never had a feeling where I spent a lot of time tweaking and not finding a tone I enjoyed. As for "feel" my main guitar already has active pickups that isolate it from any guitar/amp interaction so I don't miss anything.

So when I read about Hink's set up, part of me thinks, "cool... GEAR!" but the dominant part of me has a panic attack. That's far too much to think about and deal with for me. I never want to spend more than 15-20 minutes dialing in some guitar sound, and usually I can get what I want in about 5 minutes. What I also NEVER want is to have to unplug something and plug in something else.

I spent some time over a friend's house recently and he wanted to show me his new pedals. However, his live gig amp was at his practice space and it has an effects loop. (some blackstar amp) So instead he just had a little tube Fender combo... I forget what model. Princeton maybe? Anyway, I sat there for what seemed like forever watching him re-route things and find different ways to get power to the pedals on his pedal board and then mess around with his settings (no presets of course) to try and recreate the sound he liked. In the end, yeah, his new Gretch sounded great. I couldn't help but think that I could have gotten pretty damn close with my computer set up and not once spent time kneeling cursing at cables.

[Hink]

And the plot thickens...

The Kemper Profiling Amplifier

it will be interesting to see if this is as good as it sounds and how it 'learns'. I bet it's big bux though, but as per the title of your thread doesn't this just make things worse?

How is this not an amp modeler?

why ask me? I didn't name it so if you want to know why they call it a profiler or whether or not it's a modeler I suggest either you ask them or try it for yourself...

[hibidy]

lol, it was a fairly convincing demonstration but it wore me out a bit.

Can't imagine what it costs but chances are I won't ever get one.

[Hink]

......hhmmm; thanks Zerocrossing, I'll give that some thought. maybe need to stop being so fussy [good enough will do]

I think that line of thinking will help you spend more time making music and less money on toys.

Remember, that amazing creamy Brian May tone was often achieved in the studio with a modded transistor car stereo. Good tone can be found everywhere and doesn't always have to cost thousands.

For me, most of my time playing guitar wasn't with the best gear. First I has some horrible no-name guitar with a Tasico amp. Garbage but I somehow made some cool noise with it. Then I upgraded to a Rickenbacher 320 and a Vox Buckingham. I thought I'd be John Lennon, but I honesty never liked that set up. So my next step just involved a small transistor Marshall combo amp and a G&L Skyhawk. For as cheap as that little amp was, I loved it. Sounded amazing to me and when I auditioned for a band I remembered them saying something like, "Oh, you'll have a different amp for gigs, right?" I didn't. But when I opened 'er up they were all pleasantly surprised.

Of course I did upgrade... again and again. I had some great set ups, and some not so great, but again, I found a way to tweak things to get a sound I liked. Now I'm really enjoying being completely (almost, I do have a blackstar pedal I really dig) "in the box." It takes up nearly zero space in my studio and I've never had a feeling where I spent a lot of time tweaking and not finding a tone I enjoyed. As for "feel" my main guitar already has active pickups that isolate it from any guitar/amp interaction so I don't miss anything.

So when I read about Hink's set up, part of me thinks, "cool... GEAR!" but the dominant part of me has a panic attack. That's far too much to think about and deal with for me. I never want to spend more than 15-20 minutes dialing in some guitar sound, and usually I can get what I want in about 5 minutes. What I also NEVER want is to have to unplug something and plug in something else.

I spent some time over a friend's house recently and he wanted to show me his new pedals. However, his live gig amp was at his practice space and it has an effects loop. (some blackstar amp) So instead he just had a little tube Fender combo... I forget what model. Princeton maybe? Anyway, I sat there for what seemed like forever watching him re-route things and find different ways to get power to the pedals on his pedal board and then mess around with his settings (no presets of course) to try and recreate the sound he liked. In the end, yeah, his new Gretch sounded great. I couldn't help but think that I could have gotten pretty damn close with my computer set up and not once spent time kneeling cursing at cables.

for years I had a guitar amp that me and my father made from a ham radio amplifier and t first the speaker was a single 12" in a cardboard box. I do not have many pedals because I never use to be able to afford them so I did with out. I worked myself up after 15 years of playing to a plexi then a boogie all while always being a 1 guitar player. My first guitar was an Alamo El Dorado, absolutely the worst playing guitar I ever played.

I went from that to a Hagstrom II and in the Army and in my 20s I tarde it and some cash for a 72 tele (which total I paid 250 for). In the late 80s my home got broken into and everything was stolen except my 4x12 and 2x12...they just kicked the speakers in on those.

From there I got a valvestate 15 watt combo and a no name guitar from a used shop (actually it turned out to be an ESP body with a Warmoth neck) that I paid 200 dollars for. That lasted until December of 1995 when I hit a scratch ticket and went and got myself a Kramer Ritchie Sambora. When I started working retail in the late 90s that guitar needed a fret job so I got my Warmoth through the store I worked at (long story but I had to assemble it and when it didn't sell I had to pay the boss what I paid for it which was less than 100 bux). I then started the fret job and tbh never finished...the frets just need leveling and I have the file but I fell in love with the Warmoth.

In 2002 I bought an ESP LTD with a rose and for the very first time in my life I had two playable guitars (electric) at once. In 05 I added an acoustic and the others came after late 06 and earl 07. At that time I was using a laptop with a usb interface so all I used was my pod xt live and had no sims. I didn't buy my first sim until just before GR4 came out (besides my two pods) and in a matter of months acquired GTR and AT3, then Samp 12 with Vandal.

So if you want to talk about humility I sure know it because I lived it for 35 years of guitar playing, it wasn't until 06 things changed and I got a better DAW, better interface and as I see it what good is having things I'm not using. It will be 40 years of playing this summer, I think I deserve what I have now and I think it's even better that I can explore new things, utilize old tools and techniques and not have any limitations.

As I turned 50 it taught me that there is music post middle age and you NEVER get bored as something new always inspires you.

Note in 1996 I had a bad accident and at that time I bought a 4-track and my Marshall pre as well as an old Yamaha RX-17 drum machine...in 1998 my father bought me a gift of an Akai DPS 12 and that's when I went digital. In 2000 we hit the daily numbers and I bought my first real computer and cakewalk Home Studio 9 as my first software.

So we have similar beginnings, this is the direction I have gone in the last 4 1/2 years. I'm sorry it's a panic attack for you, it would of been a lot of think for me too and was at one point. However from that 'think' I learned so much valuable stuff the time invested returned ten fold in knowledge, now I use templates and there is very little think...in fact my samp template opens with all my guitar tracks already assigned and armed.

[Hink]

lol, it was a fairly convincing demonstration but it wore me out a bit.

Can't imagine what it costs but chances are I won't ever get one.

I just read about it, I didn't check out the demo tbh, hence why I wouldn't know whether it was modeler or not

[Hink]

btw ZC, I have 16 physical inputs for the sole purpose of never having to plug things in and out...right now my guitar is connected to 2 inputs to the computer, one on my xt live, and one going to my new amp (I'm able to because my radial splits the signal to thre outs and the boss ch-1 splits it's input to two outs, one dry and one with chorus). If I have to change a plug it's from one amp to the other right in front for me and that surely does not take me 5 minutes I have my tone in seconds, not minutes...then I experiment from there when the urge strikes me.

[metalifuxx]

I'm kind of surprised this old Firepod still goes, it gets so flippin hot, and I have it on much of the time.

I have a Presonus Eureka preamp that overheats and kind of cuts/fizzes/distorts out when its been on for 15 minutes or more. The front DI stopped working. I let my friend borrow it who knows a little bit about electronics, and he cleaned the inside board and contact points with alcohol, and he says it has fixed the problem, at least for the rear XLR input. I have not gotten it back from him yet, so I don't know if the front DI works again or not. When you send a signal to the front DI or adjust the pre gain, there is a fizzing low noise sound, and it makes the metering needle jump to the right at such a high rate of speed that you can hear a high pitched ping noise from when it hits the right side of the metering casing.

[Davey Boy]

I waver between love and hate of said amp sims (I have Gtr Rig4, Amp3, Waves Gtr3, logic to name a few). But, I don't spend ages tweaking when it comes to recording and that's where I love them. I can get down to business and be creative and then tweak or reamp (with real amp) later. I used to record with the real amp and and record a DI track "just in case" I need to reamp later but I much prefer just having one guitar track to perfect and punch in on and then go crazy (or not) later with the reamping. Yesterday I used the orange model in Gtr Rig 4 and thought it sounded great for the rhythm stuff and then used Amp3 for the leads. I've made a few go to presets though which definitely helps speed things up. I find that most of the presets that come with these things don't do it for me. But yeah, I do miss plugging into the real deal (of which I have 4 plus many pedals) and just jamming! One thing I can say is that my clients love the sims and can't really tell the difference or appreciate it when I do use my real gear. I guess that's saying something for the sims.

[Hink]

I'm kind of surprised this old Firepod still goes, it gets so flippin hot, and I have it on much of the time.

I have a Presonus Eureka preamp that overheats and kind of cuts/fizzes/distorts out when its been on for 15 minutes or more. The front DI stopped working. I let my friend borrow it who knows a little bit about electronics, and he cleaned the inside board and contact points with alcohol, and he says it has fixed the problem, at least for the rear XLR input. I have not gotten it back from him yet, so I don't know if the front DI works again or not. When you send a signal to the front DI or adjust the pre gain, there is a fizzing low noise sound, and it makes the metering needle jump to the right at such a high rate of speed that you can hear a high pitched ping noise from when it hits the right side of the metering casing.

I have a bluetube (old model) and a firestudio 26/26. The blue tube soen't heat up much but it also does not have a power switch, the FS heats up and always has but only around the area of the headphones and monitor volume knobs

[fateamenabletochange]

One thing I can say is that my clients love the sims and can't really tell the difference or appreciate it when I do use my real gear. I guess that's saying something for the sims.

Classic. You know davey boy, sometimes I'm not sure I can tell the difference either.



Just coincidence I have been setting up a recently purchased JMP1. Hasn't taken so long to be frustrating, have enjoyed this.
I don't think I have been patient enough with amp sims.

Like the OP was saying, takes a while to set up, templates, chains, software or hardware or both.
Once done good to go.

I have been buying and selling gear for 40 years now. Guild acoustic and Ibanez analog delay footpedal I still have, were amongst my first purchases.
My first electric lasted 25 years before it went through multicomponent meltdown, and I threw it away.
Firepod might the next thing I throw away who knows, I might sell it. I'll look and wonder what is the weakest link in the chain. Only natural.

I appreciate the history thanks Hink.

[trmupstage]

I know this thread is getting long but I figure I will throw in my opinion too. Tonight I downloaded Revalver to check it out against My usual sim, which is Vintage Amp Room. So, I setup a session in Nuendo and decided to do a mini shoot-out. I also downloaded Freeamp3. I had previously done some testing with Vandal and Amplitube. I took some guitar parts from a session I did that was recorded with a real (old) 65 Deluxe Reverb with an OCD pedal in front to give it a little drive. I just threw a 57 in front of it and didn't take any time to adjust it.

So what were the results?
I'll probably get some heat, but that's OK.
As much as I do like 3rd Bass, FA3 isn't really in the running if you are looking to emulate a real amp. The distortion is not dynamic as on a real amp. For clean sounds, it does work quite well. Next, Vintage Amp Room beats out Revalver for standard Marshall, Vox and Twin sounds. I was kind of surprised by how little I liked Revalver. I hear so much about it that I thought it must be great. The distortion characteristics were pretty good but the overall tone was hard and biting. I had always felt VAR wasn't warm enough, but it sounded much warmer than Revalver. Amplitube just didn't do it for me. It doesn't sound like I'm in front of an amp in a room. Yes, I turned off all the effects, but still, it was not much different than playing my POD XT. I'm not saying it sounds like a POD. All I'm saying is that, like most sims, it sounds like a recording of an amp, not like your in front of one. I tried to explain it to a friend by saying it's like having a picture of an apple and having a real apple. On a 2D basis, they seem the same, but when you take in the 3D realm, they don't compare at all. I played around with amp sims for 3 hours this time. I've done many other tests in the past too.

I was all set to declare VAR the best of everything... but then I put tracks side by side of VAR against the old Fender DR with the OCD. Then I spent 2 more hours thinking there must be a way I can tweak the settings to get the same clarity. I don't believe it's possible at this point. Actually, the amp sim that come in Nuendo got closer than any of the other sims by using the crunch setting on cabinet 1 and tweaking the tone. But still, it has no air or punch. So once again (happens every couple months) I give up. For recordings that will matter, I'll stick with a real amp.

Don't get me wrong; amp sims have their place. I still use them all the time for demo work. But nothing I have tried came even remotely close to the real thing. The real amp simply sits right in a mix without any fiddling with EQ. It has clarity, air, punch that no sim ever give me.

You can write off all I have to say. It's only my opinion anyway.

If your read this whole rant... I owe you one.

[Hink]

you shouldn't feel as if you need to apologize for your opinion. This is all subjective, we have some people who swear by one sim, some who swear by real amps as you do and some who use a mixture of all of them. One point that you make is a great one though I'm not sure you meant to make it.

The real amp simply sits right in a mix without any fiddling with EQ. It has clarity, air, punch that no sim ever give me.

The only time I find that any part simply sits right in a mix is either when the mix is very simple with few instruments or the mix is done around the part which is often on a sub-conscience basis. This puts an explanation point on subjective and why there is no right or wrong answer, no good argument or bad argument, it sums it up nicely...it's what works for you that matters.

I think I'm more likely to relax and cut loose while playing using extremely self indulgent tones that might not suit the overall composition as well as I like and five years ago I wrote songs more targeted to to compliment that. Re-amping was not really a possibility for me and didn't look like it would be anytime soon. Now I find that all my arguments against re-amping have gone through the window, I can 'play' as I like and then apply it to the song in best way for the guitar to compliment the song (for my objectives) and vice versa.

Fwiw re-amping does not meant sim only, run a radial re-amping box (99 bux) and you can use your recorded dry tone to drive an amp. Recently I realized the best part of that is it defeats the problem mentioned earlier in this thread by someone who stated they didn't like real amps because you cannot save the presets and coming back it's never the same tone. I agree with that totally and that's a benefit of sims, but of course if you drive an amp with your re-amping signal when you do the take the amp is going to stay set the same way all the way through the song.

It's great to have choices when you're mixing, at that point you are not concentrating on your performance, you're trying to bring out your guitar in a way that allows the guitar to best compliment the song as well as make the guitar part as interesting as possible.

It depends where you focus is, but with today's choice why should anyone limit themselves to one or another when your focus does change throughout writing a piece