Steinberg Discontinuing VST2 Support in its products

[Super Piano Hater 64]

...which is also used by a massive amount of existing VST/AU plugins and is still used Steinberg's latest VST3 SDK. The next drama is incoming

Yeah. I wish Apple had provided some kind of migration path from OpenGL to Metal. At least there's MoltenGL. Unfortunately I think software has to be recompiled to use it, and some graphics code might have to be heavily modified to work with the OpenGL ES API. I don't expect Steinberg to be ready for that transition in time. Anyone using CoreGraphics primitives should be fine, of course.

[SparkySpark]

I expect that VST2 is unfortunately a lost cause. Steinberg will continue pushing for total annihilation, and threaten third-party developers with the cancellation of their VST3 licenses if they don't follow its lead in dropping VST2 support. That will include both hosts and plugins, and of course VST2-to-VST3 wrappers. They have already begun making legal threats against open source projects compatible with VST2 (even if they don't use any of Steinberg's code) and they've successfully taken down a bunch of VST news and hosting websites. They have the resources and the legal authority to run very far with this scorched earth campaign. I think the next few years will be chaos.

I have long asked for an N:N:N solution (à la Steam, perhaps), that is, many types in (VST2, VST3, AAX, AU) that all DAWs could access via a single, and hopefully simple, API. On top of it, this solution should have ONE installer, which should also be a standard, so instead of having, say the Steinberg installer/portal, the Melda installer/portal, the iZotope installer/portal, ..., all devs - big an small - should be able to use this one, backed by the MIDI Manufacturer's Association or so, also including software protection (so instead of iLok and others, it would be only one).

I think Steinberg would have the muscle to do this, given they already have their own system in place, essentially doing what I suggest (but only for their own software, obviously). They could even place their own gear topmost, since they'd been providing this for other devs anyway. That way, Steinberg could keep its lead, instead of being threatened (perhaps) by Presonus or others.

For other devs, the obvious advantage would be coding for only one, agnostic, API, and not having to deal with the hassle of licences and c/p.

It would make our worlds so much easier, and let us focus on making music!

We could call it VSTeam.

[S0lo]

They have already begun making legal threats against open source projects compatible with VST2 (even if they don't use any of Steinberg's code) and they've successfully taken down a bunch of VST news and hosting websites. They have the resources and the legal authority to run very far with this scorched earth campaign. I think the next few years will be chaos.

It is a mystery to me what business benefit for them is to do all that.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

It is a mystery to me what business benefit for them is to do all that.

It's a mystery to me too. I don't know what the hell their endgame is supposed to be. I'm describing things they are already doing, and extrapolating how things will go if they keep doing them.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I have long asked for an N:N:N solution (à la Steam, perhaps), (...) We could call it VSTeam.

Cute pun. This can't happen the way you describe, though.

As a rule of thumb, every DAW has its own idea of what a plugin API should look like. The biggest players (ProTools, Logic, and Cubendo) can just do whatever they want. They bundle their own plugins and have little or no incentive to make them interoperable with their competitors. All smaller shops cater to converts who are married to their favorite plugins, so they must support popular formats (VST, AU, AAX) even if they have their own (eg. Reaper extensions, Renoise "tools," Max4Live, and whatever the heck Presonus is doing).

Developers obviously want to be able to target one "lingua franca" format and have some way of automatically wrapping/exporting a core codebase to work with everything else. Historically, that lingua franca was VST2. It translates pretty well to AAX and AU, so that was fine.

Where this scheme breaks down is with VST3, which was always a huge departure from every other plugin format. It's often possible to wrap VST2 to VST3, but sometimes it just doesn't work. In the past few years, there's been a big rush to take all these plugins that were originally VST2 and port them to the JUCE platform, which pretty much solely exists to export to all these other formats.

I don't think there's a JUCE plugin format, though, since JUCE isn't associated with any particular DAW. Instead, the new lingua franca format to keep an eye on is CLAP, which was created by Bitwig, u-he, and some other companies. Part of the plan is to have a wrapper that turns a VST2 plugin into a CLAP plugin, and then another separate wrapper to turn it into a VST3, AAX, or AU plugin as needed. (As I said before, wrappers that translate directly from VST2 to VST3 may end up in the crosshairs of Steinberg's rampaging lawyers. The layer of indirection is necessary mostly for legal reasons.)

Anyway, CLAP is in the best position (for both legal and technical reasons) to take over from VST2 as the next major plugin format, so if there's a single-source plugin shop, that's the format it would use. Thus, Cream.

[SparkySpark]

I have long asked for an N:N:N solution (à la Steam, perhaps), (...) We could call it VSTeam.

Cute pun. This can't happen the way you describe, though.

Thus, Cream.

We should do standup comedy together.

Seriously, thanks for the insight. I've been out of the loop for some time (and with "loop", I'm not referring to Ableton). Used to be in marketing in music software, and coincidentally part of the MMA (ehrm... meaning MIDI Manufacturers' Association). I don't think we were overly busy there, so why not make an impact with the Cream standard? It could perhaps work after all. Also, the MMA is not governed by these three players, but rather Yamaha and the likes, and also telecom enterprises, if memory serves me right. Well, I don't know, but Cream sounds like a cool thing.

[SparkySpark]

BTW, here's a description of CLAP:
viewtopic.php?t=574861

[Cochrane]

In any case, here, we have a very solid standard (VST2), which, for many VSTis/fx, has never been updated. I understand Steinberg doesn't want to support it forever, but I do think that even though it's been quite some time, pulling the plug is still too early.

I expect that VST2 is unfortunately a lost cause. Steinberg will continue pushing for total annihilation, and threaten third-party developers with the cancellation of their VST3 licenses if they don't follow its lead in dropping VST2 support. That will include both hosts and plugins, and of course VST2-to-VST3 wrappers. They have already begun making legal threats against open source projects compatible with VST2 (even if they don't use any of Steinberg's code) and they've successfully taken down a bunch of VST news and hosting websites. They have the resources and the legal authority to run very far with this scorched earth campaign. I think the next few years will be chaos.

If the future stance will be pursuing every developer for making VST2 to VST3 wrappers, the only solution for me would be definitely abandon Steinberg and all their software!
I've invested too much money, time in their DAWs (Cubase and Nuendo) and I will use the two more years we have with VST2 support for migrating all my workflow elsewhere.

I don't get the point in building up studios with lot of vintage gear, vintage outboards and being forced using DAWs which deprecate software (immaterial!) standards: do TS/TRS jacks in mixers had been deprecated? does analog gear had been deprecated? Does MIDI had been deprecated? And tell me please what is the meaning in deprecating software APIs besides you are Apple (3 trillion dollars company) or AVID. But you are Steinberg, and lot of people choose You because you're NOT Apple nor AVID!

[noizejoy]

They have already begun making legal threats against open source projects compatible with VST2 (even if they don't use any of Steinberg's code) and they've successfully taken down a bunch of VST news and hosting websites.

Do you have any sources for those anecdotes?

[Tj Shredder]

I have long asked for an N:N:N solution (à la Steam, perhaps), (...) We could call it VSTeam.

Cute pun. This can't happen the way you describe, though.

Thus, Cream.

We should do standup comedy together.

Seriously, thanks for the insight. I've been out of the loop for some time (and with "loop", I'm not referring to Ableton). Used to be in marketing in music software, and coincidentally part of the MMA (ehrm... meaning MIDI Manufacturers' Association). I don't think we were overly busy there, so why not make an impact with the Cream standard? It could perhaps work after all. Also, the MMA is not governed by these three players, but rather Yamaha and the likes, and also telecom enterprises, if memory serves me right. Well, I don't know, but Cream sounds like a cool thing.

Unfortunately Yamaha is the company which runs Steinberg.
On the other hand MIDI 2.0 is standardized, and if developers really jump on CLAP and code their Midi 2.0 implementations purely in CLAP…
Steinberg forgot the existence of Midi 15 years ago already, they can’t catch up technologically…
You need one single VST3, AAX or AU shell, place all CLAP plugins in its place and they will run in Cubendo, ProTools or Logic. No distribution of multiple versions necessary anymore…
Yamaha would oppose it, but the MMA could be the organization to get this coordinated. They might call it Midi Audio Plugin Format or MAPF…

[Music Engineer]

...the MMA could be the organization to get this coordinated. They might call it Midi Audio Plugin Format or MAPF…

...or GMPI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generaliz ... _Interface

[syntonica]

They've had a decade to figure this out.

I'm not shedding a tear for them.

You people are acting like they just got the rug pulled up from under them, when in reality they have had 5-10 years of notice that this was eventually going to happen.

This is like game developers complaining that Apple removed OpenGL, making it hard for them to develop a game in 2021, when it has literally been deprecated since 2013/14.

Everything you're citing is just an excuse, in reality. They have had a decade to solve these issues.

What you fail to understand is that OpenGl->Metal is a simple progression forward. It's not hard at all. The paradigms are incredibly similar and it only takes a weekend to get your brain switched over. Most devs have been reluctant only because it's a new chunk of codebase to maintain where the OpenGL one still works fine cross-platform.

The leap from VST2->VST3 is like moving from 2D space to 7D space. It's a completely different paradigm and VST3 lacks the necessary features needed by plugin devs. The VST3 SDK makes grown programmers cry and defenestrate themselves... Again, until SB started getting all legal with it, VST2 worked fine. Some might argue better.

[Markus Krause]

They have already begun making legal threats against open source projects compatible with VST2 (even if they don't use any of Steinberg's code) and they've successfully taken down a bunch of VST news and hosting websites.

Do you have any sources for those anecdotes?

- I can confirm that Steinberg did send a massive number of DMCA takedowns to open source (freeware) projects containing the VST2 SDK in the past.
Further proof:
https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/mas ... einberg.md

- VST is a trademark.
https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/m ... &CURSOR=12

- when you enter vstplanet.com to your webbrowser you get routed to https://www.steinberg.net/
VSTplanet was an independent website containing lots of VST2 freeware plugins.

- Steinberg tries to force the developers to use the VST3 SDK, but the developers don't like it. Mainly because it is bloated and lacks with important features like proper Midi support. The developer forum on KVR is full of complains. That's the main reason why after more than a decade it still has not properly replaced VST2, especially for synthesizers.

- Steinberg has been bought by Pinnacle, then by Yamaha. Yamaha Corporation is on the stock market. Such corporates usually are maximizing profit (WKN: 855314 / ISIN: JP3942600002)

[SparkySpark]

Unfortunately Yamaha is the company which runs Steinberg.

Ah, there's that.

Yamaha would oppose it, but the MMA could be the organization to get this coordinated. They might call it Midi Audio Plugin Format or MAPF…

Actually, and quite beside the point here I guess, I think "Cream" is a good word (at least for the Steam thingy). For the format itself, I'd say "CLAP" is not only lame, but searching for CLAP and VST brings up posts on drum VSTis.

I don't think my old contacts at the MMA are around anymore, but still, it could be worth a shot... If they want recognition, rather than "MAPF", they could simply add an extra M: "MMAPF".

[SparkySpark]

...and that was my two thousand two hundred and twenty second post on KVR. Hope it's a sign.