Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[TVD]

Wow...15 pages....apparantly I touched a nerve.

If I can make a 8 bar loop, you will have a 20 page thread.

[TVD]

Wow...15 pages....apparantly I touched a nerve.

If I can make a 8 bar loop, you will have a 20 page thread.

BTW, we're on page 16.

[dystonia_ek]

A loop is a average 2 bars.

I'm confused by this. What is this based on?

Isn't a loop something which is looped? 5 milliseconds looped is still a loop, no?

pHz's previous question want about the length of a loop. The average is 2 bars.

But you can make a loop stretch to 4 bars.

When I began I was splicing loops out of tape - the longest I ever did was 10 feet long - I had to drape it over half the furniture in the studio. Played at 7.5 ips, it was a hell of a lot longer than 4 bars... the piece it was being used for was over an hour long. I think Delia Derbyshire holds the 'longest tape loop' record - apparently it ran the length of a hallway at the BBC and back. A loop is just something that repeats, regardless of length.

[DwarfNebula]

....

BTW, we're on page 16.

im with you on that

[intel]

Of course, I think maybe about two or three people listen to my stuff -and they don't comment on it- so it all seems a bit moot at any rate.

actually I'm rather fond of your work. whatever you're using, keep it up.

[Ackelito]

"The art is in the mind of the artist."

this sounds so lovely... and true!

I think im going to puke if another drumloop topic emerges

[soulata]

We all have our musical preferences but having a preference doesn't require having a patronising attitude towards other musicians.

yup. exactly.

k

What's your preference? 17cm? 25cm?

k

(if I could only get to 15... )

[Steven West]

Amen Second Skin!

And I wouldn't at all doubt it AudioFlux, it happens everywhere in the arts. But if it moves books, sells tickets, or presells units... Welcome to the hole that the spindle holds steady.

Yes, well, I suppose if I was a business man I would operate in the same fashion. It's just discouraging as a music lover and musician. I want to give credit where credit is due and receive it when it is due me. Not to mention, it seems everything about the music business is destructive to the art, but this is a discussion for a whole different thread.

Keeping on topic, I don't look down on others that want to create collections of loops for others. I look down on those who would build a track and call it their own that was built off of someone else's work. As I believe someone else stated in an earlier post, any wanker can stack loops in a sequncer. I just get the feeling that those who would choose to do so are more interested in getting famous and making money than creating a work of art.

Maybe this debate is too philosophical. Like democrats arguing with republicans or christians arguing with atheists...

Well, just to say - it all depends on the context and the background of the 'artist'. I admit to using loops to 'sell out' on a certain song or two... But to me it's no different than The Fall using a cheap tape recording done in Mark's living room, or a full out dance tune done in the studio 'by a bunch of guys in ponytails'. If you know The Fall, you know they're doing it for texture and sarcasm and maybe slight success as well - but they (and I) quickly counteract it with the next song on the CD. So yes, it's a bit of a wanker move to claim 'I did this catchy house tune' using all these loops and samples from everyone else - but I hope it adds to the texture of my other songs and CD context.

But I agree on the other hand - if someone honestly believes using 'Construction Kits' and 'AC/DC riffs' constantly is a bonifide mode to get accolades for being 'talented'.... It don't wash with me. Cool if you're a DJ that can frenzy a audience with a 'mash', or play with the audiences vibe and try to turn them on to metal or soul by being coy, and yes - there's talent to doing that. But to come off stage and say 'glad you dig my shit' - NOPE! 'Glad you dig my stylin's', 'Glad you dig my spinning' - that's cool. And I think most DJ's do that as is.

Yeah, I was worried when I got my SP-808 and Future Music mags, and downloading tons of samples of the internet... It was too tempting to just 'phone it in' by using loops and samples. But for me, my musical integrity quickly intervened and forced me to be more creative. I pity those that don't have that type of conscience or discipline - but 15 minutes only lasts so long for them, then it's the bus ride home for them and back to trade school.

[TVD]

When I began I was splicing loops out of tape - the longest I ever did was 10 feet long - I had to drape it over half the furniture in the studio. Played at 7.5 ips, it was a hell of a lot longer than 4 bars... the piece it was being used for was over an hour long. I think Delia Derbyshire holds the 'longest tape loop' record - apparently it ran the length of a hallway at the BBC and back. A loop is just something that repeats, regardless of length.

Delia Derbyshire had some mad skills as a composer.

[opiadream]

[The Chase]

[Lunch Money]

Tracktioneers have their groundhog... this thread has its bunny.

Isn't part of what many of us do considered "producing" rather than "writing" or "composing"? I mean, as a producer, I've decided that Beta Monkey's drum style fits my rock songs perfectly. If I could fly him in and get him to do it for $30, I'd go for it. Instead, I have to settle for ordering the CD and choosing between (a multitude of) options.



I'm a musician, but I'm a guitarist... I also happen to be a bassist and a mediocre (at best) didge player. Give me a mandolin or a keyboard and I can plunk around because of understanding musical systems.

But I can't drum.

Why is that so hard to grasp for some people? But no... each time this thread comes up, and 16 pages into it, there are still people who are implying that unless you play and/or program every single instrument yourself, you're not a musician. That's just bullshit. I highly doubt that Jimmy Page ever sat around composing drums for Bonham, or that he played/programmed beats for all the tracks he's appeared on. But he's a fookin' musician. I mean... it's ridiculous.

I think the problem is that a lot of people are very set in their ways and the styles of music they do, and forget that musicianship and skill extend in different directions and manifest themselves in different ways for different people.

Greg

[herodotus]

Tracktioneers have their groundhog... this thread has its bunny.

Isn't part of what many of us do considered "producing" rather than "writing" or "composing"? I mean, as a producer, I've decided that Beta Monkey's drum style fits my rock songs perfectly. If I could fly him in and get him to do it for $30, I'd go for it. Instead, I have to settle for ordering the CD and choosing between (a multitude of) options.



I'm a musician, but I'm a guitarist... I also happen to be a bassist and a mediocre (at best) didge player. Give me a mandolin or a keyboard and I can plunk around because of understanding musical systems.

But I can't drum.

Why is that so hard to grasp for some people? But no... each time this thread comes up, and 16 pages into it, there are still people who are implying that unless you play and/or program every single instrument yourself, you're not a musician. That's just bullshit. I highly doubt that Jimmy Page ever sat around composing drums for Bonham, or that he played/programmed beats for all the tracks he's appeared on. But he's a fookin' musician. I mean... it's ridiculous.

I think the problem is that a lot of people are very set in their ways and the styles of music they do, and forget that musicianship and skill extend in different directions and manifest themselves in different ways for different people.

Greg

Yeah...people really don't seem to be able to see the forest for their favorite trees.

It seems interesting that just when the varieties of musical communication are growing beyond anything that our predecessors could even have imagined, so many on the frontiers of technology are putting themselves in these little, strictly defined genre-boxes, replete with rules and social norms.

Right now a guy in Caracas Venezuela is playing with some drum loops that I made. We have exchanged smileys, but past that I don't know the man at all. This, to me, is really, really, cool. This sort of thing is what KVR is about. I know it started as a site for developers, but clearly it has become something more.

There is no precedent for what this site has become in previous music history. My scholarly brethren are welcome to try to prove me wrong, but I think that I am right about this. The exchange of ideas here is the best example I have seen in my life time of what the historian Daniel Boorstin called "The Fertile Verge" Such verges are what makes culture thrive.

This is the f**king Rennaissance here. This is Elizabethan Drama, this is The Enlightenment. This is an international interchange of technology, aesthetics, music and ideas. This is a tool that our forerunners simply could not have envisioned. It goes way beyond Trance, Breakbeats, Techno, House, Ambient, Metal, Blues, Folk, Classical, Country, Aleatoric, Stochastic, Serial, Rock, Jazz, Fusion....

It is about all of these and none of them. It is about "Music" in its broadest sense. It is being redefined as we speak. And we have a front row seat.

And its FREE!!!!!!

Be a snob if you want, but I think you really might be missing something if you are.

[Emerald Tablet]

Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

i can - some call it snobbery - but some people feel like a musician should be able to do something exclusive
some people just fill a 8 bar pattern with pre defined cuts while some people say they are not musicians
i don't really care - i think my autistic nephew makes music when his hands make uncontrolled movements on a coffee table
everyone who thinks he or she makes music makes music in my opinion .... doesn't make me less of a snob -
i mean i for one wouldn't pay some soul who starts out on acid with some loops a dime, while i would buy the album
from someone like jdg who does loop, but also plays and also had years of experience in making music

Your personality makes up for how interesting your music is.
Not the tools you use

[TVD]

Tracktioneers have their groundhog... this thread has its bunny.

Isn't part of what many of us do considered "producing" rather than "writing" or "composing"? I mean, as a producer, I've decided that Beta Monkey's drum style fits my rock songs perfectly. If I could fly him in and get him to do it for $30, I'd go for it. Instead, I have to settle for ordering the CD and choosing between (a multitude of) options.



I'm a musician, but I'm a guitarist... I also happen to be a bassist and a mediocre (at best) didge player. Give me a mandolin or a keyboard and I can plunk around because of understanding musical systems.

But I can't drum.

Why is that so hard to grasp for some people? But no... each time this thread comes up, and 16 pages into it, there are still people who are implying that unless you play and/or program every single instrument yourself, you're not a musician. That's just bullshit. I highly doubt that Jimmy Page ever sat around composing drums for Bonham, or that he played/programmed beats for all the tracks he's appeared on. But he's a fookin' musician. I mean... it's ridiculous.

I think the problem is that a lot of people are very set in their ways and the styles of music they do, and forget that musicianship and skill extend in different directions and manifest themselves in different ways for different people.

Greg

Yeah...people really don't seem to be able to see the forest for their favorite trees.

It seems interesting that just when the varieties of musical communication are growing beyond anything that our predecessors could even have imagined, so many on the frontiers of technology are putting themselves in these little, strictly defined genre-boxes, replete with rules and social norms.

Right now a guy in Caracas Venezuela is playing with some drum loops that I made. We have exchanged smileys, but past that I don't know the man at all. This, to me, is really, really, cool. This sort of thing is what KVR is about. I know it started as a site for developers, but clearly it has become something more.

There is no precedent for what this site has become in previous music history. My scholarly brethren are welcome to try to prove me wrong, but I think that I am right about this. The exchange of ideas here is the best example I have seen in my life time of what the historian Daniel Boorstin called "The Fertile Verge" Such verges are what makes culture thrive.

This is the f**king Rennaissance here. This is Elizabethan Drama, this is The Enlightenment. This is an international interchange of technology, aesthetics, music and ideas. This is a tool that our forerunners simply could not have envisioned. It goes way beyond Trance, Breakbeats, Techno, House, Ambient, Metal, Blues, Folk, Classical, Country, Aleatoric, Stochastic, Serial, Rock, Jazz, Fusion....

It is about all of these and none of them. It is about "Music" in its broadest sense. It is being redefined as we speak. And we have a front row seat.

And its FREE!!!!!!

Be a snob if you want, but I think you really might be missing something if you are.

Its FREE.....until the RIAA wants to sue you!

But what else can be said? There is an information war going on. And the music industry (mainstream vs. underground) is right in a middle of it!!!