Amplitube 2's Hi-Gain sounds..

[clueless]

eeeeeeeek!

[Kingston]

Oi! I lived there for nearly two years. It's not *that* bad.

[Hink]

I wouldn't mind hearing some zeppeling/hendrix/srv type sounds. IMO that's where good amp sims get separated from shite.

I haven't heard a single amp sim doing any kind of cabinet excursion yet, for example. At least the best of them are starting to get in the ballpark with the realistic playing feel.

Although excursion would require physical modelling, and it's probably too big of a nut to crack for the engineers types that mostly do electronics simulation (or should it be called simplification looking at where we are still).

fair point, but I'm not sure it's accurate, it's just too subjective and too many variables enter into the equation.

However, let me play the other side of the coin for a moment. I think it's a fair question to ask why shouldn't tone evolve with technology?

I certainly wouldn't want to listen to Dark Side of the Moon on an old victrola, would you? So where does the line get drawn? The line between what is good sound and what is bad? I mean when did it turn bad? Different isn't always bad. Yeah sure an old Plexi is considered classic as is many. But thirty years from now will AT2 be the classic that is sought after, and the plexi becomes the old victrola?

To take it a little further, what if in the "good ol days" amp sims were the state of the art and Hendrix, SRV, ect made all their recordings using them? Would their recordings still be considered classics? What better things might we of heard had they had the headroom and low noise of digital? Think of the unreachable tones Hendrix could of explored.

What of today's young guitarists coming out of the gate (many here), are we to believe they will never be as good as SRV or Hendrix? (or others of course) I'm sure years down the road today's songs will become classics, it has been that way since the invention of recording and playing back audio (and really before).

So one could argue (but strictly playing devil's advocate here) that we are not always open enough to change and may at times hinder our own evolution and growth as artists by kicking and dragging or feet instead of embracing the new found capabilities technology has brought us.

[Kingston]

Fair points you make,

first of all, the only subjective arguement I made was with the certain type of tone I'd like to hear.

It's just that as a player, I've learned to hear and use those certain types of sounds as a benchmark of sorts. They behave in an extremely critical way to pick/finger dynamics.

This in comparison to hi-gain sounds, or chugga chugga, where dynamic behaviour isn't as easy to spot, or crucial, when it goes off the target.

"why shouldn't tone evolve with technology?"

I'm not even going to argue it shouldn't, but do you call it evolution when things don't sound as good as the originals they're trying to mimic? I'm all for every new and innovative development with tone, but since we're modelling, there are standards to meet.

"we are not always open enough to change"

again, I most definitely will fight against all changes to worse. Sure I embrace the routing and flexibility of amp sims of today (and this is the only place where I see innovation), but I'm not quite ready to ditch the ol' guitar cabs since the absolutely most crucial simulated block isn't quite right.

Think of the guitar amp/cab as the woodwork of an acoustic guitar or a violin. would you rather have all that changed to plywood and plastic and call it evolution?

Food for thought.

[Hink]

Think of the guitar amp/cab as the woodwork of an acoustic guitar or a violin. would you rather have all that changed to plywood and plastic and call it evolution?

plywood?...that's going backwards, plastic? There are songs I'm sure that would be considered classics done on Ovations. There is Rainsong guitars. Certainly high tech and new, but they are considered by some to be the best acoustics. Remember I'm just playing devils advocate, but it seems too me that a vintage crafted instrument and a modern crafted instrument made today with the same materials just isn't the same. But I'm sure even with such vintage instruments they didn't stumble across the perfect design and choice of material on the first choice. Can you say with certainty that the perfect design and materials have been found already? Or is it possible it's the best that has been found so far? In a sense to argue different might be in stark contrast to using soft synths, samples, or even hardware synths if you're that much a purist...which we do, and those who would only use vintage instruments could easily be that much of a purist...just more food for thought...

[Kingston]

Can you say with certainty that the perfect design and materials have been found already? Or is it possible it's the best that has been found so far?

I suppose now we are moving too far from the original parameters here. My point was strictly in reference to amp sims, where there is still room for improvement. I'm certainly no purist and I like a digital sound where it counts or helps, but distortion, and all it's manifestations is that one area where things aren't quite as "pleasing" as they could be. This with the fact in mind that the simplest stomp boxes, ie. an amp stage and two diodes, still sound a whole lot better. Or worse? Could be some prefer the aliased digital saturation.

Here again innovations could be made, but this far all we've seen are the amp sims that mimic existing designs. I'm purist enough to want to have at least this bit done perfectly. Maybe with the next generation of DSP power?

[Melodioso]

sorry to interrupt you, guys...

I already spent too much time on this, as I seldom need this kind of sound, but anyway... thought I could do better. So here's another example of high-gain. Basically, it's the same simple riff that was previously posted, but I took more time to make a sound with character, and mastered the whole thing more properly. What do you think? Does it sound good to you? Or does it smell bad?

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=11SD ... NRRSW9WULK

-or-

http://www.filegone.com/m25v

I'm looking forward to hearing more, that sounds pretty good. You might of said before, but what did you use for a guitar?

The clip was made with AT2, nothing more added, and an ESP with EMG's 81.

[Hink]

sorry to interrupt you, guys...

I already spent too much time on this, as I seldom need this kind of sound, but anyway... thought I could do better. So here's another example of high-gain. Basically, it's the same simple riff that was previously posted, but I took more time to make a sound with character, and mastered the whole thing more properly. What do you think? Does it sound good to you? Or does it smell bad?

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=11SD ... NRRSW9WULK

-or-

http://www.filegone.com/m25v

I'm looking forward to hearing more, that sounds pretty good. You might of said before, but what did you use for a guitar?

The clip was made with AT2, nothing more added, and an ESP with EMG's 81.

I have an ESP and it has 81 too...

[Cosmic Bandito]

sorry to interrupt you, guys...

I already spent too much time on this, as I seldom need this kind of sound, but anyway... thought I could do better. So here's another example of high-gain. Basically, it's the same simple riff that was previously posted, but I took more time to make a sound with character, and mastered the whole thing more properly. What do you think? Does it sound good to you? Or does it smell bad?

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=11SD ... NRRSW9WULK

-or-

http://www.filegone.com/m25v

I'm looking forward to hearing more, that sounds pretty good. You might of said before, but what did you use for a guitar?

The clip was made with AT2, nothing more added, and an ESP with EMG's 81.

I think your first clip (which I'm assuming was AT2 as well) sounded realistic(fooled me for sure), but the riff wasn't that heavy, more of your 80's Hard Rock (ie Ozzy, G'N'R) variety . This clip, which was going for that metal crunch, lacked that essential crispiness (instead there was a touch of fizz) on the palm muted chords, and it was a giveaway. For metal or nu-metal or whatever they call it these days, that crunch on the palm muted chords IS what creates the groove, so it's big problem pretty much with all sims for this style. I spent my entire mis-spent youth listening to and learning Metallica songs, so I know the palm mute thing well. (Too bad I now play a Strat with a vintage bridge and is a bitch to palm mute, I end up with cuts and scratches)

Your clips were excellent BTW and probably some of the best/realistic I've heard out of sim, if just a bit typical. I'd like to hear examples not trying to sound like this Guitarist or that. Just a great guitar sound that inspired some juicy original playing, any style...

[Hink]

Can you say with certainty that the perfect design and materials have been found already? Or is it possible it's the best that has been found so far?

I suppose now we are moving too far from the original parameters here. My point was strictly in reference to amp sims, where there is still room for improvement. I'm certainly no purist and I like a digital sound where it counts or helps, but distortion, and all it's manifestations is that one area where things aren't quite as "pleasing" as they could be. This with the fact in mind that the simplest stomp boxes, ie. an amp stage and two diodes, still sound a whole lot better. Or worse? Could be some prefer the aliased digital saturation.

Here again innovations could be made, but this far all we've seen are the amp sims that mimic existing designs. I'm purist enough to want to have at least this bit done perfectly. Maybe with the next generation of DSP power?

Remember my posts were just for the sake of debate, and it's nice to actually have an intelligent debate and not a flame war, it's a breath of fresh air, thanx for that...

Of course Azimuth was the first song I did with xt live, but I'm not sure it would sound better using an amp mic-ed up. I am sure that it would sound different though, which wouldn't be a bad thing. But that song was actually written fairly quickly because I didn't want folks to be mislead by me talking about xt live and then listening to music that didn't have it.

If you listened to my song that's on CHRYSALID, "The Whisper", that was done with POD2.0 (and FWIW everything else on my page save for "Pour me Another" was done with a Sansamp GT2). Again I don't how the sounds could of better per se, just different. Which of course might of taken each song in a different direction as well.

That is why I am slowly warming up to the re-amping concept, but all three do respond differently (4 actually when you count my half stack) to my playing. If I re-amped, I might get a better sound...but then if I did, then with that better sound I might find something in playing style to change that may not of been there with say the Sansamp. So I am leaving the door to re-amping open, but I still am at a point where I would rather replay it than just re-amp it.

FWIW, the only effects on Azimuth are a little delay and a little reverb...

[Melodioso]

For metal or nu-metal or whatever they call it these days, that crunch on the palm muted chords IS what creates the groove, so it's big problem pretty much with all sims for this style.

Could you post or just list some bands/songs with this type of sound? I'm not very familiar with the style, but interested to discover some new sonic landscapes. Yes, the first clip was also AT2, with less EQ applied. In fact, the only difference between the first clip and the second is EQ, if I remember right... and I made the first one after 15 min of fooling around with AT2. So you can probably tweak it further more...

It is very interesting to see that once you "reveal" the clip was done with an amp sim, people tend to say "this wasn't crisp enough, this wasn't beefy enough..." The same clip was posted on another forum, where people only deal with real amp, and the response was "it's awesome, what amp is that?". I'm quite sure if I pretended it had been done with a triple recto, no one would have said a thing. Or maybe "an amp sim could never do that!"

[Killvehicle]

For metal or nu-metal or whatever they call it these days, that crunch on the palm muted chords IS what creates the groove, so it's big problem pretty much with all sims for this style.

Could you post or just list some bands/songs with this type of sound? I'm not very familiar with the style, but interested to discover some new sonic landscapes. Yes, the first clip was also AT2, with less EQ applied. In fact, the only difference between the first clip and the second is EQ, if I remember right... and I made the first one after 15 min of fooling around with AT2. So you can probably tweak it further more...

It is very interesting to see that once you "reveal" the clip was done with an amp sim, people tend to say "this wasn't crisp enough, this wasn't beefy enough..." The same clip was posted on another forum, where people only deal with real amp, and the response was "it's awesome, what amp is that?". I'm quite sure if I pretended it had been done with a triple recto, no one would have said a thing. Or maybe "an amp sim could never do that!"

I called it an amp sim since your first post!! BUt like I said it didnt really "sound" Like and amp sim, but I had a good feeling it was. I guess some people can tell and others can't. It is basically too good to not be an amp sim, and IM one of those fools who like the dirt from real amp mic'ing and so forth, I'll take a dirty recording with vibe than a recording with crystal clarity that sounds plastic anyday!

[Lunch Money]

Well, you always have a 50/50 chance (or better) guessing that it's a sim.

[Killvehicle]

Well, you always have a 50/50 chance (or better) guessing that it's a sim.

haha Yeah but I was at least 87% sure on that one, maybe 96%.

[Cosmic Bandito]

For metal or nu-metal or whatever they call it these days, that crunch on the palm muted chords IS what creates the groove, so it's big problem pretty much with all sims for this style.

Could you post or just list some bands/songs with this type of sound? I'm not very familiar with the style, but interested to discover some new sonic landscapes. Yes, the first clip was also AT2, with less EQ applied. In fact, the only difference between the first clip and the second is EQ, if I remember right... and I made the first one after 15 min of fooling around with AT2. So you can probably tweak it further more...

It is very interesting to see that once you "reveal" the clip was done with an amp sim, people tend to say "this wasn't crisp enough, this wasn't beefy enough..." The same clip was posted on another forum, where people only deal with real amp, and the response was "it's awesome, what amp is that?". I'm quite sure if I pretended it had been done with a triple recto, no one would have said a thing. Or maybe "an amp sim could never do that!"

Well, you don't have to take my word for it, I heard your clip yesterday (before you revealed what it was), and thought exactly what I stated above, that's there's fizz instead of crunch on the palm muting part - the rest passes. I don't post every friggin minute, just once in while when I have time, and this morning I just revealed exactly what I thought the second I heard it - not biased by what was used. Your first clip didn't have any groove oriented palm muting, so it sounds real IMO and I still stated that after the fact.

I don't even listen to this genre any more, but you want to hear the ultimate crunch, listen to Metallica's "And Justice for All Album". "To Live is to Die" is a great track to hear slow groove inspired palm-muting CRUNCH. Let's hear you post that track and hear people's opinions . From my era Anthrax "Among the Living" had some great palm muting action. I'm not so plugged in to Metal today (most of these f**kers barely sing at all, in my day at least they tried to), but I've heard a few tracks on the radio from System of a Down that had that palm muted groove.